Gentlemen,

I have a piece of shooting here in the UK for Canada geese and foxes that at the moment I shoot with a 12 bore shotgun and a .22 LR.

The geese are considered vermin here and their meat is possibly the worst waterfowl I have ever eaten so I am not shooting them for the pot.

My question is how much "more gun" is the .22 hornet than say a .22 Wmr or .17 Hmr as the piece of land in question is in quite a built up area bordered with houses on one side, a caravan park on another and a road ( though built on a twenty foot escarpment ) on the third. I appreciate that this means that the shooting angles are limited enough as is but there are some areas the geese could be flighted into or foxes ambushed in where a bit more power than a .22LR could be appropriate if not safer, due to the tendency of .22 LR rounds to ricochet.

The geese especially seem rather tougher than .22 LR is capable quickly despatching on body shots and whilst the I've used a 17 Hmr on geese and foxes I can't help but wonder if the .22 hornet, or .22 WMR if the small centrefire is felt to be inappropriate, would have more authority; it would not do to let a goose or fox make it into someone's garden to expire for example!

TIA,

A

I've been shooting a 22 Hornet/K Hornet for more than a decade and for what you describe, I'd much rather have the Hornet than your other choices. In my experience your are less likely to have a ricochet and your are much less likely to have your game go very far. Most will be DRT due to the construction of hornet bullets. I wouldn't have an issue shooting a fox or goose out to 150 yards with my K Hornet.

When they came out with the 17 Hmr they depicted it as far superior to the 22 Magnum rimfire. Baloney is what I say.

Anyways the 22 Hornet is a great round and it's velocity is right up there with the light bullets. Way out of reach of any rimfire round.

Get the Hornet and I'll tell you a good, the CZ Model 527.

.22 Hornet

It is a great hunting cartridge. You'll be amazed at what it is capable of.

Ghubert,
I can attest to the 22 Hornets capabilities as I regularly shoot foxes in SW London. Never had one travel more than a couple of feet, the noise (modded) will not stir up the locals and it's nice and cheap to shoot if you reload. Go on, treat yourself!

Since you are on that side of the pond, look at the Anschutz 22 Hornet. They are fantastic rifles in the accuracy depertment and the 22H will certainly meet your goals. I have had an Anschutz for about 10 years and love it.

The only thing I would be concerned about is the noise. Quite a bit more than a .22 long rifle but still a lot quieter than say a .223. If it can be moderated that would be great. I have been shooting one since 91 and it is my favorite. Use bullets constructed for the hornet and you won't have any problems with ricochet. DW

I have used the Hornet on wild turkey and javelina here in Texas. Even killed one deer with it, even though I also lost a deer with a hornet.

I think the Hornet will do just what you are wanting to get done.

I know someone who got hold of a batch of 40gr 22WMR bullets which he loaded into his hornet using Lil'Gun powder - lots of it! (Filled to the brim and compressed). He says he was getting over 3000fps and these would turn possum into read mist. If you're not a reloader then there are the newer high velocity rounds .... ?

Thank you gentlemen,

I've mulled this over, greatly assisted by the postings here, and have come to the conclusion that on balance the best idea might be to get a .222 that can be loaded up and down as needed and should moderate almost as well as the hornet.

I've seen a nice Brno fox that seems like it'll fit the bill.

I hope i'm on the right track.

Geting the .222 would probably be a much better solution for what you are needing than a Hornet.

Take a look at the 22 Fireball round. It has less powder capacity than the 222 Rem and more than the 22 Hornet. It is a moderen design case and eazy to reload. I have reloaded Hornet rifle ammo for some years and found that I dont like the rimed, long, tapered ,thin Hornet case.

Hi Bracer,

Unfortunately such a fine and ideal sounding calibre would count as an "exotic" here in that factory rifles in that calibre are not generally imported.

That would make it a custom proposition and that is more money than I would want to throw at the project.

I take on board the comments about loading for the hornet thought I must confess that I have heard the opposite a few times also.

It seems to be a bit of a polarizing calibre!

regards,

GH

From your response that it can be loaded up or down I take it you reload. To really expand it's field of versatility try cast bullets. You are concerned with distance the bullet travels and cast bullets would tame it down. Cast bullets shoot great in all my .222's and are deadly on jackrabbits. 58 grain RCBS bullet in 2000-2200 fps range is great. Noise level is low.

The problem I had with the Hornet as far as reloading goes, counting the original loading, the cases seemed to only last 3 maybe 4 loadings, and I do not load anything I shoot hot.

The Lee Collet Die solves the case life issue for the Hornet.

Ghubert, it may or may not be readily available on your side of the pond but Remington now makes various Model 700s in 17 Fireball which has all the pluses of the 221 Fireball with teeny tiny 17 caliber bullets at blinding speeds. It seems to avoid many of the drawbacks of the overbore 17 Remington.

very impressive on geese, I'm sure.

quote:

... the cases seemed to only last 3 maybe 4 loadings, and I do not load anything I shoot hot.

I get indefinate case life and I load my hornet hot. Very hot! Well, from a muzzle velocity perspective anyway. I get around 2700fps with a 55gr .224 bullet using Lil'Gun powder. But ... I also use a special loading technique and R-P cases. I only trim them once to square them off. They do elongate but only until they reach the end of the chamber then they headspace on the case mouth - sort of. I don't size the necks. Instead, I seat the bullets in a paper hand towel cup arrangement I make. The powder gets highly compressed which helps keep the pressure down. Lack of case neck grip necessitates the use of heavier bullets (the bullets cannot be moved with the fingers and there is no recoil to move them in the mag). Accuracy is very good - even with a rust damaged bore.

I bought my first hornet back in the 70's, and i have owned several different hornets since... I just don't care for the hornet case, and in a small center fire, i MUCH prefer the .222 Rem..

For hornet sized game, i MUCH prefer the 22WMR for those jobs, as the 22 mag. does everything i need done out to 100 yards or so, and the BEST part is, i don't have to pick up those dam hornet cases and reload them!

DM

Ghubert,
Although I dearly love both the hornet and the triple deuce, I also think the 221 fireball is a pretty neat round in its own right.

If you could find one in a Remington 700 LVSF, I don't think you could go wrong. Especially if you reload.

GWB

Thanks Geedub.

I do indeed reload, it's a bit like fly-tying in terms of importance to the urban-based sportsman, but I have not see many rifles in that calibre for sale in the UK.

Is it's niche that it is the size of a hornet round but made for modern pressure?

Regards,

A

Ghubert,
No, it's not a niche cartridge. At least not to me.


It is a SAAMI cartridge, and listed in reloading manuals
Do a google search. This and it's little brothers, the 20 vartarg (20 cal) and the 17 machIV/17 Fireball(17 cal.) are capable of fine accuracy. Pop a crow at 100 yds with a 25 grainer 17 mach IV at 3800 fps. It looks like someone busted a pillow in a pillow fight. Feathers explode.
Here is some info from the following website


http://221fireball.net/

A LITTLE .221 FIREBALL HISTORY
The 221 Remington Fireball cartridge (221 Fireball for short) is an enigma. It was designed as a pistol round but really shines as a rifle cartridge. It was designed in 1963 by Remington for their new XP-100 bolt action pistol, and, although the XP-100 is no longer produced, the .221 Fireball lives on and seems to be gaining momentum. More people each day are discovering how really good it is..

NOTE: The bolt action pistol concept lives on in the form of the T/C Contender, which is available, not ironically, chambered in .221 Fireball.

Remington wanted to use their .222 Remington cartridge in the XP-100, but its muzzle flash and report were way too much. So, keeping the design in-house, they shortened the .222 case from 1.70” to 1.40” and a new cartridge was born. Instead of calling it something like the .222 Remington Mini, since Remington already had a couple of “.222” named cartridges (.222 Remington and ..222 Remington Magnum), they named it the .221 Remington Fireball.

So what about the name “Fireball”? I think that one's easy. Just watch an XP-100/.221 Fireball being shot and you'll understand. The muzzle flash, even in daylight, provides quite a show. Here's a good YouTube video that shows that to good effect: 221 "Fireball"

.221 FIREBALL RIFLES
Whoever decided that the .221 Fireball would make a good rifle cartridge probably had no idea how good it would be. From shooters to shooting forums and writers universally agree: the .221 Fireball is a real shooter.

The biggest surprise is how “big” it shoots compared to its recoil and noise. It has proven to have a legitimate useful range approaching 400 yards. In that regard it is not quite the equal of its big brother, the .222 Remington, its stable mate, the .22-250 Remington, or the .223 Winchester, but it is well suited for varminting, target shooting, or plinking. It comes into its own as an especially highly desired and admired varmint rifle because of its low recoil, extreme accuracy and shootability.

Currently the CZ 527 is the only known regular production rifle offered chambered in .221 Fireball. In 2002 Remington offered the Model 700 in .221 Fireball as a part of their “Classic” series, and new or pristine versions of those command a price typically from $600 to $800. Cooper Rifles of Montana and others offer semi-custom versions. I decided to have a Savage bolt action modifed to .221 Fireball for myself. For many that's the best bet -- modifying an existing rifle.

I went that route because I learned that a built or modified rifle doesn't have to be financially intimidating. The .221 Fireball utilizes a short action and a bolt head diameter the same size (.378”/9.6mm) as the .204 Ruger, the .223 Winchester and its sibling .222's. Used short action Remington 700's and Savage 110's are commonly available and relatively inexpensive. Plus, the Savage enjoys replaceable bolt faces if you are rebarrelling, say, a .243 or .308. Big savings there.

It uses the same standard .224 bullet as a multitude of .22 caliber rounds, so barrel bore sizes and bullet sizes are no issue. Its mild 1:12 or 1:14 twist is common to the .22-250, so compatible rifle barrel blanks are readily available.

.221 FIREBALL AMMO
Few off-the-shelf rifles means that available ammunition is a sticky situation. Obviously the demand for ammo is naturally tied to having something with which to shoot it. It's not surprising then that, at present, Remington is the primary producer of .221 Fireball ammo. Nosler and occasionally other small manufacturers sell some. Most of the choices available are limited to 40 grain or 50 grain loads, costing typically well over $1 per round. Don't expect to find these at Wal-Mart or mom and pop sporting goods stores either. I buy an occasional box at Bass Pro Shop, but I prefer handloading my own.

Shooters of rarer cartridges like this are usually also handloaders, by choice or necessity. And, as is most often the case, handloading is the only way to reach this little marvel's highest potential.

Fortunately most major reloading die manufacturers offer 2-die or 3-die sets for the .221 Fireball and there is an abundance of suitable bullets and powder. Brass is now pretty readily available, but it's all made by Remington and about the same price as better .223 brass. Brass can be formed from .222 or .223 brass, but it's tedious and time-consuming.

The most popular and common bullet weights and types are 35, 40, 42, 45, and 50 grain, in hollow point, soft point, ballistic (polymer) tip and the occasional spitzer. 40 and 45 grain seem to be by far the most popular and consistently effective. Only rarely will you see anything larger than 50 grain bullets used in the .221 Fireball.

Well suited powders are in abundance. The diminutive case size (though still not as small among centerfires as a .22 Hornet) means that even some pistol powders work – and work well. In fact, two of the most popular and effective .221 Fireball loads, Hodgdon's Lil' Gun and IMR4227/Hodgdon H4227, are themselves pistol powders. Other powders of note include Alliant Reloder 7, Accurate AA1680 and AA2015, IMR 4198, and occasionally Hodgdon H335. The consensus is that many powders shoot very well, with the nod to the accuracy of Reloder 7 and AA1680.

A real bonus is the small amount of powder required for really big performance. This is a highly efficient and effective round! My .223's typically like 24-28 grains of my favorite powders, with the .221 Fireball even better velocities than an average .223, well over 3000 feet-per-second, come from as few as 15 grains of powder.

SHOOTING THE .221 FIREBALL
The proof is in the shooting. The .221 Fireball shoots with a softer recoil and less muzzle blast than a .223 but more than a .22 Hornet or .22LR. If an endorsement is needed, I have it on pretty good authority that the .221 Fireball is a big favorite of the staff at Nosler, the premium bullet and ammunition maker. In the forums are consistent reports of highly repeatable 100 yard sub-MOA results, with .3” to .5” groups being the norm. Worries of short barrel life, as with some big, hot loads, is a non-factor. It's use as a varmint round is almost legendary.

and some small cals.



Left to right: 17 ackley hornet, 17 hebee, 17 fireball, 17 mach IV, 17 remington, 20 vartarg, 20 Tactical, 22 hornet,218 bee, 221 fireball, 222 rem.

Pretty much will cover the varmint spectrum (varmints, not chamberings).

Best
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
I've mulled this over, greatly assisted by the postings here, and have come to the conclusion that on balance the best idea might be to get a .222 that can be loaded up and down as needed and should moderate almost as well as the hornet.

I had a similar quandry a while back. 22 Hornet just not quite enuff for some purposes and the cases are kind of whimpy. I went the 221 Fireball route and am currently loading it down to Hornet velocites for small edible game (blue grouse) and fur bearers.

The 221 is the 222 shortened by 0.30"

Me having a little fun with the Fireball

Ghubert,
if you want to go down the fireball route, get in contact with Dave at Valkyrie Rifles http://www.valkyrierifles.net. He may be able to do a custom chamber for you and suggest a donor rifle too... My vote is still the Hornet as the best option for adequate whack in built up areas