Wildcat death knoll?

22 November 2003, 17:00

Pecos41

The easiest way to start another wildcat epidemic is for the factory to produce some new cartridge cases for reloaders to build wildcats upon. The new short, fat cartridges the factory has made the last couple of years should generate some new wildcats.

So long as there are shooters, there will be one who wants to reinvent the wheel, so "new" wildcats will forever trickle down IMHO. Note I am not saying any of them will of any value or do anything new! [Smile]

22 November 2003, 17:14

Bwana-be

Well, Im not sure how many wildcats throughout history have truly offered something new.
The 416 Taylor comes to mind, but these days, it makes a lot more sense to buy a ne 416 Rem, for example.
There was a frenzy toward faster bullets, but I think we;ve seen the peak of that hilltop, so really the only "function" a wildcat can have these days is offering an already-available set of performance data ( .X" Y-grain bullet at Z fps) in a "personalized" shape.
E.g., you may like the idea of the 8x57, but you really want to use your old Winchester lever, so you make an 8mm-307 Win or whatever.
That, and one other thing I can think of, which may keep us into wildcatting forever, which is the refurbishing of an old shooter, chambered in an obsolete caliber.
When the 450 Marlin goes obsolete, and my bore is looking rough, I'll chamber it for 470 Marlin.
{wow, that's a good idea!)
[Big Grin]

And then, there's cartridges out there that just weren't made right. Someone out there will be willing to spend the time and resources to "fix" them.
Basically, there are only about 20 calibers in common usage. And most common cases have seen all of the calibers they could each handle. Not unless a really major introduction of a new case will we see another rush of 'catting.
And even then, folks have gotten so good at it, a new case will come along and within two years, it's been necked up and down, and trim to all standard lengths before anyone has a chance to get excited about the idea.
Witness the RUM. And that was just a re-hash of the 404 case.
$.02

22 November 2003, 18:50

John Bartels

Hope not. I've just learnt about playing with things like the 17machiv, 6mm/250, and 6*47. One more barrel change and I won't have any factory cartridges.

23 November 2003, 00:43

Bubba John

I don't know how many calibers there are listed in "Cartridges of the World", but there is room for more.Wildcatting is fun. If I could build reamers and dies I would be in serious trouble.

23 November 2003, 02:42

bigbore50ak

since the big thing for single shot handguns are rimmed cases 225,3030,and 444 cases being popular id like to see something like 30x348.rimmed and straight walls to grab the chamber or it could be called the 30x50ak imp. just something i thought about jason

23 November 2003, 02:45

120mm

How about a more scientific approach to wildcatting? Like idealizing the combustion vehicle. (Sure, short and fat is "better" than long and slender, but how about spherical?) Or the ignition, (I can't believe etronix isn't being replicated by wildcatters) or even things like solid fuel and liquid fuel dispensible propellent.

I'm just a dumb airplane mechanic, but it seems like crush-caps and brass cartridges have been around forever and there might be a better way to launch a bullet....

23 November 2003, 04:17

<Savage 99>

Even if powders and primers stay the same in terms of efficiency there are things to improve. For instance I mentioned a way to create a "Gibbs" type bottle neck rimless cartridge by fireforming it while it headspaced on it's case mouth. I called this the S99 line.

Straight walled cartridges might enjoy improved reloading case life by headspacing on the mouth. Rounds such as the .458 Winchester come to mind.

So instead of dreaming what a .25 WSSM might be like one could list the improvements that might be made.

Another area to improve is "packaging". Many products are packaged in certain size boxes or bottles. There are formulas to calculate the most efficient sizes that in terms of cartridges might yield the most magazine capacity or some other desirable trait.

Just musing.

23 November 2003, 10:09

SDS

I really believe the fast-twist barrels are a whole new ball game. Use .22-250 as an example:

You can't shoot some 40 grain thin-jacket bullets our of a fast-twist barrel because they will come apart, and you can't shoot the 80-grainers out of the slow-twist barrels because they won't stabilize. Yes, the cartridge looks exactly the same, but it won't shoot out of a factory rifle. Sounds like a wildcat to me....I'm a dull fellow with a limited budget, but the two most interesting cartridges to me right now are .22-250 AI 40 degree fast-twist, and 6mm Rem AI 40 degree fast-twist. Low recoil and reach-out-and-touch capability past 1000 yards. If I go crazy I'll build a 6mm-.284 or 6mm-'06.

And then there are .505 Gibbs cases of various lengths and necks. I've lost track, but Robgunbuilder's group should be turning out a bunch of .600 OK's soon, and RNS's crew is well on the way to turning out their .550's, based on a straight-wall .460 Wby case.

The party is only just starting.

23 November 2003, 10:36

wallyw

IMO Winchester and Remington's introduction of beltless magnums, short or long, has opened the door to much more wildcatting.

23 November 2003, 12:03

bartsche

So far the response has been very refreshing. Thank you for the lift guys. [Big Grin]

In about 8 months the Lone Star Long Neck should appear. No you can't drink it Roger

24 November 2003, 05:59

Dutch

Want to see a bunch of wildcatting? Just wait until the military accepts it's new cartridge! Word on the street is that Remington just made 10 million 6.8x43 cases...... That's a 270 on a 30 Rem, in case you are wondering.

Ultimately, the formula for wildcatting is: 10,000 (almost) free cases + yankee ingenuity = the darndest concoctions...... JMO, Dutch.

25 November 2003, 17:27

MartytW

Wildcatting is dead? Oh rats, now you tell me ;o)

Let's see, I designed the .458 SOCOM in 2000, and to date, we have factory loaded ammo, brass, dies and over 100 rifles out there ... not to mention already one wildcat on that case, the .475 Tremor.

Then we just had the brass made for the 500 Phantom. Imagine if you will, the WSSM, but with a 12.5% increase in body diameter and a pinch shorter. Designed with a very specific purpose in mind, but already one guy is looking at making a 338 version .....

Not to mention the 358 CQB, the 510 Phalanx, the 338 Spectre and more in the works.

I am waiting for folks to start wildcatting the 50 Beowulf - oops, already done, the 50 Thunder Sabre. And like Dutch said, the 6.8x43, which is a shortened 30 Rem rated for high pressure. Think of the rimless high pressure Herretts you could make with that!

Don't think it is dead ....

25 November 2003, 17:58

45LCshooter

What is the 358 CQB? I was thinking about all the good things I've heard about the .357 Maximum while looking at this Mini-14 in the shop and could not help but wonder if the .223 brass was thick enough at the shoulder for a similar cartridge that would headspace at the mouth, a 9x40mm, if you will....

25 November 2003, 19:23

Grandpasez

Most intriguing is what you can do with
50 Cal BMG brass. 700 HE on the right in
the picture.And Rob's 12GA FH...Ed.

26 November 2003, 01:51

Wildcat Crazy

I hope wildcatting is not dead,as I have several I'd still like to build.

I've been thinking about building a rimless .375/.444 on a yugo using the 8mm Mauser case.

WC

26 November 2003, 02:53

WyoJoe

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
.....are there any NEW wildcats to be had, or will we join the Dinos? Tyrantasuars XX. Have an opinion?

Yup, the 9.3 WSM. Should give you 9.3X64 balistics out of a more readily available case.

26 November 2003, 15:57

MartytW

quote:
Originally posted by 45LCshooter:
What is the 358 CQB? I was thinking about all the good things I've heard about the .357 Maximum while looking at this Mini-14 in the shop and could not help but wonder if the .223 brass was thick enough at the shoulder for a similar cartridge that would headspace at the mouth, a 9x40mm, if you will....

It is just that, a 9x40 that uses 30 Rem brass, or now the 6.8x43 brass. Basically the 357 Herrett in rimless format. Works wonderfully out of AK drums .... and with the 250 gr HAWK loaded to subsonic velocities not very loud either ;o)

27 November 2003, 05:43

bartsche

VELY INTERESDING

27 November 2003, 05:54

Dago Red

I don't know if anything that is really new will be done (just variations of things already tried), except for things off of new cases. Such as Lazzeroni's stuff, that was all new when he designed it, and I would call it wildcats. Until he started really producing.

I think that wildcatting will continue strong though, the interest in things that were done in the past. Like .224 Clark, or 25 winters. I have a 270 apex, probably only a handful of those tried (why neck a 7mm rem. to 270?) People will read about something and it will spark their interest, they will think of a modification, and try it. How many of us wouldn't like a wildcat named after us? Like 470 Rojo Grande (for Big Red :-) etc.

How about the 375 by 350 remington mag. I haven't heard of anybody having one. The shop locally came up with that idea years ago for people taking those single shot pistols to Alaska. they might not have been the first though. And they didn't play with shoulders, just necked it up.

I think it is one of the greatest parts of shooting. It's especially cool when all of a sudden there is a factory chambered rifle in a cartridge you have been shooting for years. :-)

Red

28 November 2003, 07:06

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by Dago Red:
"It's especially cool when all of a sudden there is a factory chambered rifle in a cartridge you have been shooting for years." :-)

Red[/QB]

I agree Red. That's just how I felt When they made the Varminter into the 22-250 [Wink]

02 December 2003, 18:03

Dave R

I think you could build some cool wildcats off the new .50 S&W case.

Has anybody built a wildcat off the .444 Marlin? Mebbe a .376 or a .338 bullet?

Doh. Edited to note that 2 threads down from this, at the time I read it, was a thread about wildcatting the .50 S&W. I'm a little slow.

[ 12-02-2003, 09:06: Message edited by: Dave R ]

02 December 2003, 19:11

Wildcat Crazy

The .444 Marlin case has been wildcatted extensively.

.309 JDJ
8mm JDJ
.338 JDJ
.358 JDJ
9.3 JDJ
.375 JDJ
.411 JDJ
.416 JDJ
The above mentioned cartridges are ll from SSK Ind.,others have catted it all the way from .22-416.

WC

04 December 2003, 09:12

Sabot

Gentlemen....I keep telling you Sabots are the next wildcat wave...why neck something down when you can sleeve it down and dramatically increase efficiency?

From my previous posts, you know that i have had some success with nylon/plastic sabots, but the next round of R&D is going to be anodized and/or coated ALUMINIUM alloy sabots. Test firing a 375 RUM, 10 inch twist, 26 inch bbl with .338 and .308 bullets is scheduled for February 2004.

There is no question that this will work, we just don't know how much the dang things will end up costing in mass production. A 180 gr .308 will clock 3700 fps and a 300 gr .338 SBT will do 2950 fps.

Now, the PLASTIC sabots have a new twist as they can sport a primer in the base to ignite the TOP of the powder column for a 6% increase in efficiency and cases with NO primer pockets. Electronic ignition, of course.

Then there is caseless ammo with sabots that screw on....interested yet?...

04 December 2003, 10:36

<Savage 99>

Sabot,

When will the regular plastic sabots be available that you talked about? Or is there a problem with them and thus the experimenting with aluminum ones?

04 December 2003, 11:57

bartsche

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sabot:
" anodized and/or coated ALUMINIUM alloy sabots."
Out of cuiosity,Sabot, how will the abrasiveness of the aluminum and the anodize be overcome? [Smile]

04 December 2003, 17:14

MartytW

quote:
Originally posted by Sabot:
Gentlemen....I keep telling you Sabots are the next wildcat wave...why neck something down when you can sleeve it down and dramatically increase efficiency?

From my previous posts, you know that i have had some success with nylon/plastic sabots, but the next round of R&D is going to be anodized and/or coated ALUMINIUM alloy sabots. Test firing a 375 RUM, 10 inch twist, 26 inch bbl with .338 and .308 bullets is scheduled for February 2004.

There is no question that this will work, we just don't know how much the dang things will end up costing in mass production. A 180 gr .308 will clock 3700 fps and a 300 gr .338 SBT will do 2950 fps.

Now, the PLASTIC sabots have a new twist as they can sport a primer in the base to ignite the TOP of the powder column for a 6% increase in efficiency and cases with NO primer pockets. Electronic ignition, of course.

Then there is caseless ammo with sabots that screw on....interested yet?...

Several interesting developments. The US military went with polyetherimide as it was one of the materials that has strength similar to steel, good machinability and can withstand the temperatures involved (I should know, I ran the plant that made the polymer for 5 years).

Regarding the aluminum sabots, question would be how you will ensure that it is "discarding". The plastic ones peel open, will the Al ones be like those used on the sabot rounds for the Abrams tank? The concept of metallic sabots has been tested using sintered metals (PM) but did not go any further. Results did not warrant it at the time.

On the caseless concept, I like the idea, but how will you seal the chamber. The absence of the brass to act as the gasket between bolt and chamber will require some work. The HK system was notorious for gas leakage, and the Voere system is not exactly highly commercialized either.

I would love to see some of these new developments and would like to hear more. Please keep us (me) up to date or Email with any additional information.

Thanks!

05 December 2003, 16:42

DigitalDan

I didn't know it was over. [Frown]

There are two reasons it won't die. 1) Some savant is going to develope an alloy that can stand 100k pressure repeatably without 'erosion' problems, and 2) his brother will usher in a new staged progressive propellant. The velocity bar has gone up a fair bit in my life, and I'd be surprised if we don't make 5000 fps seem somewhat routine by the time I get planted. I don't necessarily believe factories will be at the forefront of this. Too, the day will arrive when ballistic sight systems such as the M1 tank carries will be downsized to sporter weight and size. All of these things open vistas the tinkerbugs cannot walk away from.

How 'bout a 12 bore dart gun at 6000 fps? Bad day for prairie dogs I'd say.

BTW Sabot, There's some guys at LRH already getting 3200+ with the .338 300 gr SMK's. Raise the bar a bit on that one. Methinks you need to find out what the army uses in the M1 MAIN GUN for sabot material.

[ 12-05-2003, 07:47: Message edited by: DigitalDan ]

06 December 2003, 11:29

bartsche

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DigitalDan:
[QB]I didn't know it was over. [Frown]

"All of these things open vistas the tinkerbugs cannot walk away from."

Maybe that info you send me will bare fruit. [Big Grin]

Roger

06 December 2003, 12:27

The Maz

Why not just eliminate the rifling and make fin-stabilized darts like they use in the tank guns? Use something like a .45-120 case or such to shoot a brass dart at 5000+ fps - especially cool would be darts that tumble or bend on impact to create really big wound channels. Now THIS would be the wildest cat around!

06 December 2003, 17:10

MartytW

quote:
Originally posted by The Maz:
Why not just eliminate the rifling and make fin-stabilized darts like they use in the tank guns? Use something like a .45-120 case or such to shoot a brass dart at 5000+ fps - especially cool would be darts that tumble or bend on impact to create really big wound channels. Now THIS would be the wildest cat around!

Flechette rounds of various types were tested by the US military and were found to be not as effective as originally thought. I need to dig out the reference but there is an excellent read on the development of small arms munitions that talks about this.

Bear with me.