Best brass for Wildcatting??

29 March 2003, 12:36

I am in the process of reforming 220 Swift brass into 220 Swift Ackley Improved, and I'd like to squeeze every bit of velocity and pressure I can from the, "new" cartridge with all the new powders that have come out in the last few years. I am doing a comparison test with other speedsters in the cartridge world.
Can you help me find a brand name in the brass department that will give me that last few pounds in pressure and strenght, that I'm looking for? Hows Norma or Lapua brass?
Thanks in advance for your help!! ...Stalker...

29 March 2003, 14:01

dan belisle

Lapua, but you're treading on dangerous ground. - Dan

29 March 2003, 14:09

Reed

Another vote for Lapua (Lop'wa phonetically) although I don't think they make 220 Swift. Norma's considered very good although softer but, again, no 220 Swift.

Good luck.

Reed

29 March 2003, 18:30

Wstrnhuntr

If it were mine I would just go with some good winchester brass, but any brand isnt going to make enough difference to add up to squat unless you find some that is exceptionally bad. Your cartridge is what it is. Finding the load that your particular rifle "likes" will go farther toward performance gains.

29 March 2003, 20:13

Urodoji

Why not start with .375 H&H brass, you could create the .220/.375 H&H Swift AI. I bet you could get 6000 fps with a .40 grain pill... [Big Grin]

30 March 2003, 03:47

<JBelk>

Stalker---

Anybody that would give you *any* reccomendation for brass would be some kind of FOOL after what you ask.

Trading eyesight for feet per second is the stupidest trade I've ever heard of.

Improved cartridges can be DANGEROUS with little or no warning.

30 March 2003, 10:30

<Speedy>

If you're looking for .22 caliber speed why don't you get PO Ackley's book. He describes the perfect varmint round: the .22 eargesplittenloudenboomer!!!! .378 Weatherby necked down to .223 It should suit you.

30 March 2003, 11:17

Stalker

jbelk,

I did say,"comparison test", didn't I? And I don't intend on firing the universal barreled receiver with my eyes!

That wasn't nice calling your fellow forumites fools either, and what is the name of this forum again? I thought it said,"Wildcats and their developement", I think your in the wrong forum!

Good advice is just that, but sarcastic wit is a fools game!

30 March 2003, 12:54

Charlie M

G'day Stalker,
AS different batches of the same brand of brass can have different characteristics [maybe softer or harder etc]you may need to try several different batches from the same manufacturer to get what you want or why don't you just buy 20 Cases of several differnt brands like Winchester,Remington,Norma and see what happens.If you find one brand better than the rest buy a heap of the same batch.You may get a surprise and you have not put all your eggs in the one brass basket.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Regards,
Charlie.

30 March 2003, 20:17

sscoyote

quote:
Originally posted by Stalker:
jbelk,

I did say,"comparison test", didn't I? And I don't intend on firing the universal barreled receiver with my eyes!

That wasn't nice calling your fellow forumites fools either, and what is the name of this forum again? I thought it said,"Wildcats and their developement", I think your in the wrong forum!

Good advice is just that, but sarcastic wit is a fools game!

one thing about naysayers, they're a dime a dozen, and you know what, i've never met one that knew he was one. They're just spoken about quietly in concealed places, but the reputation is still there. Know what i mean?-- some do.

[ 03-31-2003, 16:32: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

31 March 2003, 03:30

Soundman

Hoping to find "brass" that will allow you to reach higher levels of pressure?

That's really foolish!

Mike

31 March 2003, 03:39

<eldeguello>

Stalker, before you go too far on this project, let me recommend that you read C.S. Landis's book, .22 Caliber Varmint Rifles (if you haven't already read it). Although somewhat outdated by propellant development since it was written ages ago, it shows the results of a lot of experimentation of the kind you are going to do, and it might save you from "reinventing the wheel" in some aspects of your development work.

31 March 2003, 05:30

<JBelk>

Stalker--

I was not being sarcastic. I was citing actual facts.

About 1988 a gunshop owner friend of mine told a customer that WW brass had more capacity and therefore could be loaded to a higher pressure......which is usually true.

The guy fragged a pre-64 M-70 243 and IMMEDIATELY sued Winchester, Nosler, Hodgden, and my friend.

The suit was thrown out after 18 months of lawyer fighting but it ran my friend out of business and into bankruptcy.

When you handload YOU take on the responsibility of what you do. To ask somebody how unsafe you can be is, in my view, an attempt to spread that liability around.

If you have a Universal test receiver, properly housed and ready to test, why don't you buy some brass and find out?

I think you'll find any brass will hold more pressure after several firings, but the risk of failure goes up too.

I've re-read your question and my answer.... It stands as originally written.

31 March 2003, 07:57

RIP

Good posts, Jack. That is a horror story about lawyers and an idiot handloader.

The Lapua .338 Lapua Magnum brass is designed to operate at average pressure around 60Kpsi and withstand the aberrations to 70Kpsi on the ragged edges.

The Lapua brass in all cases seems to be great stuff, but that was a foolish plan of experimentation to start this thread.

31 March 2003, 08:10

Savage99

I just got a lot of WW brass from www.grafs.com and it is very uniform and free of dents. The neck wall thickness of this Winchester brass is a little on the thick side at about .014" and at first it concerned me. I measured my throat with a bore gage and tried to push a bullet back into a fired case and I ended up turning the necks on the first ones that I shot. But now I am happy shooting them as they are and it seems that I have a fitted neck. The wall thickness variation is almost zero and runout is very good.

I keep an eye on the neck wall thickness and it does not grow on me but I don't load to maximum. My barrel is the standard 1-14 twist and I see a diminishing returns anyway with the short bullets that I can stablize.

As far as sarcasm goes I will not let Jack Belk outdo me. On that subject I am an expert not that Jack is not well spoken.

I view the problem with improved cartridges to be the owners. They are overloaded for sure as that was the idea in the first place and the data is scarce.

01 April 2003, 01:30

sscoyote

...

01 April 2003, 07:54

JustC

I don't know about brass strength and extra psi/case, but I do know that if you load an Improved cartridge so that it's accurate, and not leaving ridges on the primers, you wont' blow anything up. I don't beleive Improved has anything to do with it,....anything can be overcharged.

I will say however, that unless you have a test action, that trying to push the psi envelope will eventually be painfull.

02 April 2003, 04:16

sscoyote

JustC, you get a star for the day for topictact.

02 April 2003, 04:42

Jamt

quote:
Originally posted by Reed:
Another vote for Lapua (Lop'wa phonetically) although I don't think they make 220 Swift. Norma's considered very good although softer but, again, no 220 Swift.

Good luck.

Reed

Well Norma has cases in .220Swift. See link below

http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/index.html

03 April 2003, 09:12

sscoyote

You guys sure Norma doesn't make Swift brass, they used to.

03 April 2003, 03:57

<JBelk>

Until Bill Ruger ressurected it the *only* new brass was Norma.

It had a reputation for being soft and primer pockets opened up early.

03 April 2003, 05:40

smallfry

Stalker, why wouldnt you want to find out for yourself?

03 April 2003, 06:08

Saeed

Gentlemen,

The 220 Swift is one of my all time favorite cartridges, and I have several rifles chambered for it.

I have also built a few 220 Swift Improved for those who wanted them.

We have tried Norma and Winchester brass, and definitely prefer the Norma brass. It is a lot more consistant than Winchester.

On the subject of wildcats, we have developed and shot quite a number of them, and I think what our friend Jack Belk said should be taken seriously.

May I also add that ANY reloading should be taken very seriously, and a strict regime should be followed to avoid any serious mishaps.

Here is a perfect example of "an accident waiting to happen"

I know a gentleman who got himself a 6.5x68 - this is the European equivalent of the 264 Winchester magnum.

He brought his rifle here to have a scope installed on it, and have some loads developed for it.

I asked him what bullets he wanted me to develop loads for, and he said 100 grains only.

I shot a few groups, and selected one that gave good velocity, with good accuracy. I loaded 100 rounds for him.

I wrote down the load for him, and he left with a big smile on his face.

A few months later, he called and said his rifle is not shooting very well, and was wondering what the problem might be.

I asked him to bring his rifle, and his loads and I will check them.

The first thing I did was try to clean the barrel - in my experience, most people don't clean their barrels as well as they should. Sure enough, the barrel had a lot of copper fouling, so I set about with my usual routine, which is like this.

I run 2-3 patches of Hoppe's #9, then a dry patch, then a bronze brush saturated with #9.

I make my own version of JB Compound. It is simply JB mixed with any good gun oil. This I found easier to apply to the patches.

I run a few patches back and fourth with this concoction.

A couple of patches #9, then a dry one.

A patch every 5-10 minutes with Sweet 7.62.

I repeat this as long as any sign of copper remains in the barrel.

I had a shock when I opened the ammo boxes!?

He had all sorts of different bullets loaded! Mostly round nose.

To cut a long story short, he ran out of bullets, but had some old 6.5x55 ammo. He thought as both calibers were 6.5 mm, he would just pull the bullets out of the 6.5x55, and load it in his 6.5x68!?

Some of the bullets were 139 grains, and some were 156 grains.

Needless to say, he used the same powder and charge I gave him for the 100 grain bullets.

I found his "problem" was that he fired two rounds, and had to bang the bolt on a side of a table to open it. That is when he called me, but never mentioned what the problem was!

This man was very lucky.

03 April 2003, 07:42

<JOHAN>

Stalker

Very easy choice. Lapua does NOT make 220 Swift brass, but NORMA has 220 brass and ammo [Big Grin]

I have seen a few rifles blow up because of incorrect handloads, be sure about what you are doing at the reloading bench [Eek!]

I have a simular story to Saeed's There was a fellow at the hunt. I noted that when the loaded the rifle there were all types of bullet styles, and weights. I asked him about which ammo he used. He replied: 3006. According to him there was no difference in grains or any thing like that, just that they had the same caliber [Eek!]

/ JOHAN

04 April 2003, 05:14

Dago Red

could somebody tell me how somebody gets to the pressure where they blow up their rifle? I mean, I have developed a good load with Varget for my 30-06AI, no pressure signs, although over the max load for a standard 06. (I'm using 57.5 grains). The cases never stick and groups are great, getting 3040fps with a 165g. bullet. Working up loads I always start below max, even on AI cartridges, and then work up (depending on how close to max I am) .2-.5 grains at a time. If I see pressure signs I back off.

I wonder, is it possible to not see pressure signs and the same load can later blow up the gun? Just curious as to how people blow these things apart.

Red

04 April 2003, 05:46

<JBelk>

Dago Red---

I investigate these things for a living.

By FAR the most common mistake is a using the wrong powder.

Those with similar designations are especially prone to mistakes.... WW 680 when WW-760 is called for usually causes parts to fly. 4198 instead of 4831 is a another.

Among beginners too lazy or stupid to consult a book I've seen those that wanted "target loads" so they load Bullseye......one guy wanted a load for his Whelen using 357 pistol bullets. Since 15 grains of 4227 is good for the bullet in a 357, 55 grains of it should be about right for a Whelen, right??? WRONG!!

The other biggie is the wrong caliber case for the chamber. 7x57 in a 7 mag, 270 Winchester in a Weatherby, 300 Savage in a 308, etc.
(WHO was that idiot writer that said the 308 was just a modern 300 Savage?) Some think that means they're interchangeable.

........and then there are those that think, "Hmmm three rings of steel......?" "Stongest action in a sporting arm ever made.......?" "The book says 55/4831.... surely they're talking about some weak peice of $hit rifle, not MY brand new super strong rifle.......".... "Hornady loads "magnum" loads for my aught six....I will too.

And then there was a guy that had a short carbine so he bought pistol powder for the short barrel......Unique is NOT good in a 243 M-600!!

The list goes on.

99% of ALL RIFLE PROBLEMS stem DIRECTLY from trying to get more velocity from it.......and there's NEVER been a deer that even knows what veloctiy is.

Work for accuracy and dependabilty NOT velocity.