"When to clean?" test

25 June 2007, 21:34

Three weeks ago I posted a suggested protocol for determining when a particular rifle wanted to be cleaned. I tried to keep it simple. I loaded 40 rounds for my M70 375, using Hornaday 300 grain bullets (Cheap and accurate.) and 70 gr of RL 15. I shot a three shot group approx. every twelve rounds, starting with cold, super clean barrel, and ending with the last three. The groups were as follows:

1.3"
.9"
2.3"
.8"

Between groups I practiced off-hand. What I learned is that (probably) this rifle needs a few rounds to settle down, and then it's good for at least 40 shots before cleaning, enough for a safari. I will re-test to determine exactly how many shots (from 3 to 12) are required to foul. I'm attributing the 2.3" group to operator error.

Here's the most important thing I learned: The EvoShield Recoil Shirt is magic. Highly recommended. See my review in Products.

25 June 2007, 22:13

shootaway

At 25 yds I can throw rocks that accurate without cleaning my hands.

26 June 2007, 01:45

Brice

I'm not certain what you mean, shootaway. I will be hunting crocodile this year, and pinpoint accuracy is essential. I might need to place a shot in 2" at 100 yds. My 375 is my medium rifle and is what I will use for that and sable. I use a 458 Lott for the nasty stuff and will be hunting buff on the same trip. I don't want to carry three rifles, so I want the 375 shootng its best.

26 June 2007, 02:41

LRH270

You could take Jenna along to keep your bore clean, and other odd jobs.........

26 June 2007, 10:10

JAL

quote:
Originally posted by Brice:
Three weeks ago I posted a suggested protocol for determining when a particular rifle wanted to be cleaned. I tried to keep it simple. I loaded 40 rounds for my M70 375, using Hornaday 300 grain bullets (Cheap and accurate.) and 70 gr of RL 15.

Um, I'm a bit of an expert at doing tests that don't seem to be repeatable, so I was wondering if those "cheap" bullets, and that load is what you will be actually using. I think some bullets foul up quicker than others for instance. Also, where did the 1st shot go in each group? I doubt if said crock will wait around for a "group" to the brain.
Anyway shoot one for me too.

26 June 2007, 22:27

Brice

Good point JAL. I wanted to determine how many shots are needed to make that first shot predictable. The Hornadays, though cheap, shoot very well in this rifle, but I use A Frames, Barnes x's and solids for normal hunting. I'm thinking of using the Hornadays this trip because they should work quite well on the flattie and they're accurate.

I plan to repeat the test. Too small a popluation for good confidence level, as the statisticians would say.

As for LRH270: Promises, promises.

26 June 2007, 22:43

LRH270

You've got the number.

30 June 2007, 12:51

shootaway

Here is a 5 shot,200yd group I shot yesterday with NO fouler right after cleaning my rifle.[URL=

]no fouler[/URL]Brice,whatI am sying about the twenty five yard thing is that a bullet needs to be tested at 200 yds for accuracy and not under that yardage.So far all my rifles would group the tightest right after cleaning with no fouler.I just experienced a Win 270WSM that required a single fouler before the tight first shot group.Your rifle should group tightest right after cleaning and if there is anyone who does not agree to this he is probably lacking some REAL experience IMHO and I am not kidding here.If I were to shoot croc I would only take along a rifle capable of grouping within an inch at 200yds.Stunt pilot is the type who likes to learn from someone and at the same time call him names.

02 July 2007, 00:39

Brice

Shootaway,
Thanks for the info and comments. Here is the useful stuff I've learned so far on this test.
-The rifle still groups well after 40 rounds. That is good to know on a safari.
-It probably needs 1-5 shots to settle down, so I will re-test this point. It may not be true.
I agree with you, most of my rifles shoot just fine for normal hunting purposes immediately after cleaning. My varmint rifles also go to same POI.

The rifle I would prefer for croc is a 7 mag with Lilja barrel that shoots in the 4's and 5's, but I need my 375 and 458. Really don't want to do buff with the 375, the 7 mag is inadequate for big PG (IMO), and I ain't a'gonna haul three rifles. So, will fine tune the 375. It shoots the Hornadays into an inch or less, and they'll work just fine on the croc, maybe better than A Frames.

As for stuntpilot, I bear no ill will toward any AR member, except one or two, and he's not in that group. I thought the Prep H was funny6, though I've seen it before.

04 July 2007, 02:52

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is a 5 shot,200yd group I shot yesterday with NO fouler right after cleaning my rifle.[URL= ]no fouler[/URL]Brice,whatI am sying about the twenty five yard thing is that a bullet needs to be tested at 200 yds for accuracy and not under that yardage.So far all my rifles would group the tightest right after cleaning with no fouler.I just experienced a Win 270WSM that required a single fouler before the tight first shot group.Your rifle should group tightest right after cleaning and if there is anyone who does not agree to this he is probably lacking some REAL experience IMHO and I am not kidding here.If I were to shoot croc I would only take along a rifle capable of grouping within an inch at 200yds.Stunt pilot is the type who likes to learn from someone and at the same time call him names.

Brice:

This guy has never owned a rifle. He's just a troll.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

04 July 2007, 11:01

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

Brice:

This guy has never owned a rifle. He's just a troll.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

05 July 2007, 02:58

shootaway

Prince Charles, you should get together with Oscar and form a band, call it The GREAT PRETENDERS. Oscar AKA jorge,joined the military when he misunderstood the TV commercial.He thought it said 'be all that you CANNOT be" in the army.

05 July 2007, 03:47

jdollar

shootaway, there is absolutely nothing in any of the posts EXCEPT YOURS that mention shooting at 25 yds!!!!!!! once again, what the hell are you talking about?

05 July 2007, 23:42

Brice

Thanks for the pix, Charles. I never met an African bush camp I didn't like. 46 days 'til I'm in one again.

06 July 2007, 05:49

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Prince Charles, you should get together with Oscar and form a band, call it The GREAT PRETENDERS. Oscar AKA jorge,joined the military when he misunderstood the TV commercial.He thought it said 'be all that you CANNOT be" in the army.

You are the pretender here, and everyone knows it.

I have no idea why you post so much absolute drivel. Perhaps you might consider posting based on what you have really done...

But I guess that would be too restrictive.

Jorge will be at the Dallas Safari Club convention next winter as will I. Perhaps you could explain to us in person why we are pretenders and you are not. My PHs from Africa will be there, as I imagine Jorge's will be, should corroboration be required.

You did post on JudgeG's thread that you would be here, right?

06 July 2007, 05:50

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by Brice:
Thanks for the pix, Charles. I never met an African bush camp I didn't like. 46 days 'til I'm in one again.

Have a great trip and take a lot of pictures for us. I am jealous but I have no room to complain!

06 July 2007, 09:55

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Prince Charles, you should get together with Oscar and form a band, call it The GREAT PRETENDERS. Oscar AKA jorge,joined the military when he misunderstood the TV commercial.He thought it said 'be all that you CANNOT be" in the army.

You are the pretender here, and everyone knows it.

I have no idea why you post so much absolute drivel. Perhaps you might consider posting based on what you have really done...

But I guess that would be too restrictive.

Jorge will be at the Dallas Safari Club convention next winter as will I. Perhaps you could explain to us in person why we are pretenders and you are not. My PHs from Africa will be there, as I imagine Jorge's will be, should corroboration be required.

You did post on JudgeG's thread that you would be here, right?

Yes,I would like to be there.

06 July 2007, 09:57

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
shootaway, there is absolutely nothing in any of the posts EXCEPT YOURS that mention shooting at 25 yds!!!!!!! once again, what the hell are you talking about?

Brice,someone posted somewhere about shooting groups at 25 yds.I thought I read it on this thread.I guess I was wrong.

07 July 2007, 05:26

smedley

quote:
He's just a troll.

An arrogant one at that!

quote:
if there is anyone who does not agree to this he is probably lacking some REAL experience IMHO and I am not kidding here

To me your "honest opinion" don't mean shit!

I have rifles that will go either way.

I got one that will not settle down until there is at least 4 rounds but 6 is better before it will pull in and it will do an inch and a half at 250 for the next 30 rounds.
I got a couple that will do just fine for the first 20 to 25 before opening up.

This thread, as like all others you've posted on, show that your opinion is your opinion and still don't mean shit to others, just like using carbon fiber cleaning rods.

Shootaway your arrogance is your ignorance!

______________________

Smedley

______________________
From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
B.H.Obullshitter
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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
Winston Churchill
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"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." Samuel Adams
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Facts are immaterial to liberals. Twisted perceptions however are invaluable.
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We Americans were tired of being thought of as dumb, by the rest of the world. So we went to the polls in November 2008 and removed all doubt.....let's not do it again in 2012 please.

07 July 2007, 05:28

smedley

PS Brice thanks for the post!

PPS I am just above you in B'Ham!!

______________________

Smedley

07 July 2007, 09:46

shootaway

You call me ignorant then tell me your rifle is accurate for the first 25 rds before opening up.WHAT A JOKE.A good hunting rifle will only be shootable right after cleaning,especially those not shooting molly-coated bullets.If you have a rifle that needs 6 rds before settling, then it is probably a small bore shooting molly-coated bullets.A large bore rifle will foul real fast and not allow for fliers.It will also no be able to go more than three rds before groups really open up.Now.if you want to limit your shooting to 50 yds,cleaning and foulers are not so important because all rifles shoot well at this distance.

07 July 2007, 12:45

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
You call me ignorant then tell me your rifle is accurate for the first 25 rds before opening up.WHAT A JOKE.A good hunting rifle will only be shootable right after cleaning,especially those not shooting molly-coated bullets.If you have a rifle that needs 6 rds before settling, then it is probably a small bore shooting molly-coated bullets.A large bore rifle will foul real fast and not allow for fliers.It will also no be able to go more than three rds before groups really open up.Now.if you want to limit your shooting to 50 yds,cleaning and foulers are not so important because all rifles shoot well at this distance.

More proof that he's never fired a shot in his life.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

07 July 2007, 12:46

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
You call me ignorant then tell me your rifle is accurate for the first 25 rds before opening up.WHAT A JOKE.A good hunting rifle will only be shootable right after cleaning,especially those not shooting molly-coated bullets.If you have a rifle that needs 6 rds before settling, then it is probably a small bore shooting molly-coated bullets.A large bore rifle will foul real fast and not allow for fliers.It will also no be able to go more than three rds before groups really open up.Now.if you want to limit your shooting to 50 yds,cleaning and foulers are not so important because all rifles shoot well at this distance.

More proof that Shootaway has never fired a shot in his life.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

07 July 2007, 17:24

shootaway

400 Nitro,you should join the band called Oscar and The Great Pretenders.

08 July 2007, 06:47

toadhead

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
You call me ignorant then tell me your rifle is accurate for the first 25 rds before opening up.WHAT A JOKE.A good hunting rifle will only be shootable right after cleaning,especially those not shooting molly-coated bullets.If you have a rifle that needs 6 rds before settling, then it is probably a small bore shooting molly-coated bullets.A large bore rifle will foul real fast and not allow for fliers.It will also no be able to go more than three rds before groups really open up.Now.if you want to limit your shooting to 50 yds,cleaning and foulers are not so important because all rifles shoot well at this distance.

Shootaway;

Everything you are saying here is completely contrary to the experience of the thousands of other members of this forum.

By constantly repeating information that everyone knows to be false you have made yourself appear to be a total idiot.

I am embarassed to call you a fellow Canadian.

If you don't know what you are talking about - just ask the members for HELP, there are many that will be more than happy to provide a thorough explanation of any subject you care to discuss.

DID ANYONE SURVIVE WHEN YOUR PLANET EXPLODED!

08 July 2007, 18:37

shootaway

I belong to no country,I AM the country.It's too COLD for me in Canada.For every really intelligent person there is a billion ZOMBIES like toadhead.

15 July 2007, 16:48

greghud

quote:
I belong to no country,I AM the country.It's too COLD for me in Canada.For every really intelligent person there is a billion ZOMBIES like toadhead.

omg. best quote EVER
greg

16 July 2007, 05:31

Tyler Kemp

quote:
I belong to no country,I AM the country.It's too COLD for me in Canada.For every really intelligent person there is a billion ZOMBIES like toadhead.

16 July 2007, 15:39

BNagel

Once again, folks, it is beer-talking (like he's already told us before). shootaway from here little mantroll

17 July 2007, 11:09

shootaway

I should get my 458WM this week or next.I will shoot a group right after cleaning to show you once again that the most trusted shots come right after cleaning.BNagel,no beer just an aching back from sitting too long in front of the computer.Next time I'll drink some scotch but only when there something worth celebrating.Lately we RUN OUT of such things.

18 July 2007, 07:32

toadhead

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I should get my 458WM this week or next.I will shoot a group right after cleaning to show you once again that the most trusted shots come right after cleaning.BNagel,no beer just an aching back from sitting too long in front of the computer.Next time I'll drink some scotch but only when there something worth celebrating.Lately we RUN OUT of such things.

Try holding the muzzle farther away from the target this time so the bullet holes don't have powder burns around them.

18 July 2007, 17:45

Hot Core

quote:
Originally posted by Brice:
...-The rifle still groups well after 40 rounds. That is good to know on a safari.
-It probably needs 1-5 shots to settle down, so I will re-test this point. It may not be true.
I agree with you, most of my rifles shoot just fine for normal hunting purposes immediately after cleaning. My varmint rifles also go to same POI. ...

Hey Brice, I've never been on a Safari(and probably never will), and am curious about "Gun Cleaning on Safari". I must be under the mistaken impression that the firearms are properly cleaned each evening by some of the hired hands. Is that incorrect?

I can also see where the cleaning is something I would want to do myself. Is there some reason this is impractical on Safari?

And I see you prefer to use a barrel that places the First Bullet from a clean barrel in the spot you want it to land - me too. Not real sure how to ask this so it makes sense, so bear with me. I can see where a person would just keep Hunting for whatever is next on their List after making a Kill, and I can also see where it would make sense to call it a day after making a special Kill. Does a person normally fire the rifle a whole lot in one day, at long distances, on Safari?

Best of luck to you on the Safari. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

18 July 2007, 23:48

shootaway

Good hunting and CLEAN one shot kills to everyone!

19 July 2007, 10:53

JAL

quote:
Originally posted by Hot Core:
Is there some reason this is impractical on Safari?

I've just had a thought, I have one now and then. I doubt an Airline would like our pressure packs and bottles of solvents leaking all over the place, so what does one do?
I guess the "camp" would have something. . .
Wouldn't be supprised if it was sump oil only though.

19 July 2007, 18:15

shootaway

Bring along just the JB.

21 July 2007, 10:52

JAL

Do people actually use that stuff?

I think I had some about 50 years ago, even then no one here seemed to use it so I didn't either. Tasted awuful, or was that peanut paste.

21 July 2007, 14:31

shootaway

Bring along Sweets also.

21 July 2007, 18:10

Hot Core

Hey JAL, I've used a good bit of JB Compound over the years. Must admit though, in ALL THOSE YEARS, it never crossed my mind to "taste" it.

Brice must be out blasting away at the African Game - without cleaning.

quote:
Originally posted by JAL:
... Tasted awuful, or was that peanut paste.

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Bring along Sweets also.

I disagree with most of what you post, simply due to actual first-hand experience, but the "Sweets" sure is funny.

22 July 2007, 12:07

JAL

Um, yes I missed that one, but here Sweet's is Sweet's and sweets are lollies.

But just out of curiosity, these days anyway, if solvents are so good, what does this JB do?
Someone on AR said it was too soft to cut barrel steel, so presumably it's not even good for lapping?

22 July 2007, 16:42

Hot Core

Hey JAL, I ran a test with it and several other "Abrasives" on a piece of Galvanized steel and found that it is basically an excellent Polish medium. Quite similar to "Whitening Toothpaste" in it's ability to Polish the Galvanize. I used a new toothbrush with each different cleaning/polishing compound.

JB Compound will cut Powder Residue in a few wipes and I've not found any negatives at all with it.

I wrap a patch around a brush, put the JB Compound on that patch and give the barrel a few scrubs. And it cleans out with any regular Bore Cleaner real well.

I used to use a bunch of it scrubbing the Carbon Ring out of my 7mmRemMags when I used a lot of H870. Read where Mr. Bruce Hodgdon recommended using a Paste made from Bon Ami and your favorite Bore Cleaner to cut that exact Carbon build up. Tried it and it works great just as Mr. Hodgdon said.