Deleted

30 October 2014, 19:38

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by srose:
We spotted a bull that had really small tusks that would be takeable under a tuskless license.

Congrats on your hunt. Glad everything worked out on the elephant. Well done on the leopard too.

I would like to hear more about the statement quoted above. I have never heard that tusk size makes a bull elephant huntable as a tuskless. If you can elaborate on that or perhaps one of the Zim PHs can weigh in. Maybe it is an area specific thing. Even ration elephant are generally tusked cows. Just trying to understand the concept.

30 October 2014, 20:21

srose

Deleted

30 October 2014, 20:27

Jack D Bold

Sam,

Ah, dreams are made of these. looks like you had a fantastic time in camp! Thanks for sharing your hunt.

30 October 2014, 21:20

The Norwegian

Well done Sam. Thanks for sharing.

Morten

Ps

Cannot wait to test the CEB's in my new VC 450

30 October 2014, 23:13

srose

HEH HEH

31 October 2014, 00:04

DCS Member

quote:
Originally posted by srose:
MJines,

I'm not really sure on the rules about tuskless but this is a Campfire area and maybe that has something to do with it. Nothing is exportable.

Sam

Sam,

Nothing at all can be exported, or just no parts of the elephants?

31 October 2014, 00:55

Use Enough Gun

Nice hunt report and pics!

31 October 2014, 02:14

Ed Scarboro

Sounds like you had a great trip Sam. I am doing a similar hunt with Andrew next July.

31 October 2014, 06:39

Fjold

Great report, thanks for posting it.

31 October 2014, 07:41

shotgun46

Wow what an exciting hunt . It took me the day after the last day on my fifth trip to get a leopard . There is nothing easy about a head shot on an elephant . I went for a heart lung shot on mine and he went down within 50 yards of where I hit him Congratulations on a magnificent hunt great buffalo

01 November 2014, 02:47

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
We spotted a bull that had really small tusks that would be takeable under a tuskless license.

Congrats on your hunt. Glad everything worked out on the elephant. Well done on the leopard too.

I would like to hear more about the statement quoted above. I have never heard that tusk size makes a bull elephant huntable as a tuskless. If you can elaborate on that or perhaps one of the Zim PHs can weigh in. Maybe it is an area specific thing. Even ration elephant are generally tusked cows. Just trying to understand the concept.

What is the story here?

Tuskless to date has always been a barren female and the change in policy would indicate that Zimbabwe is in trouble?

01 November 2014, 02:55

pagosawingnut

Congratulations Sam! Sounds like you had a proper hunt.

01 November 2014, 03:27

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
We spotted a bull that had really small tusks that would be takeable under a tuskless license.

Congrats on your hunt. Glad everything worked out on the elephant. Well done on the leopard too.

I would like to hear more about the statement quoted above. I have never heard that tusk size makes a bull elephant huntable as a tuskless. If you can elaborate on that or perhaps one of the Zim PHs can weigh in. Maybe it is an area specific thing. Even ration elephant are generally tusked cows. Just trying to understand the concept.

What is the story here?

To be honest I am not to impressed with the hunting in this report and sorry for that.

Tuskless to date has always been a barren female and the change in policy would indicate that Zimbabwe is in trouble?

With a tuskless license, my understanding is that in Zim a tuskless bull would also be fair game. Of course, tuskless bulls are rarer than hen's teeth. But I have never heard that tusked cows (or bulls) count as tuskless so long as their tusks are not too big . . . whatever too big is. Hopefully one of the Zim PHs can clarify.

01 November 2014, 05:20

Zephyr

Well done
The Hippo hunt sounds like fun

01 November 2014, 20:37

Marty

What a wonderful hunt. Pretty obvious this isn't your first rodeo.

02 November 2014, 03:05

Paul Truccolo

Congrats Sam on another very successful hunt !

Great to see you getting out there !

02 November 2014, 05:01

Nakihunter

Congratulations Sam. Great hunt and great report too!

You got a leopard! Now you know what Jim Corbet must have felt like! Sorry buddy no tigers on license!

04 November 2014, 08:15

retreever

Sam a fine report and fine shooting with boomers.

Mike

04 November 2014, 17:15

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
We spotted a bull that had really small tusks that would be takeable under a tuskless license.

Congrats on your hunt. Glad everything worked out on the elephant. Well done on the leopard too.

I would like to hear more about the statement quoted above. I have never heard that tusk size makes a bull elephant huntable as a tuskless. If you can elaborate on that or perhaps one of the Zim PHs can weigh in. Maybe it is an area specific thing. Even ration elephant are generally tusked cows. Just trying to understand the concept.

Curious. The statement quoted above about the bull being takeable as a tuskless was deleted from the report. Again, I am really just interested in finding out whether such a concept is permitted or not but find the deletion odd if it is in fact permitted.

05 November 2014, 02:04

ozhunter

Mmm, so who was the outfit??

05 November 2014, 02:28

MJines

Baobab Hunting Safaris

05 November 2014, 02:49

Wendell Reich

Maybe some ph's can expand on this (or possibly they do not want to due to a gray area in the rules/law), but, as I have been told by more than one ph, some communal areas have different quotas that are taken as "tuskless quota". Meat quota, PAC quota, call it what you want, it happens. More than likely I am guessing it happens because the council wants meat, and these seems to be a lot of meat on an Elephant.

This is not the first time I have heard of a Bull or tusked cow being taken as a "tuskless".

Is it 100% legal? I dunno. I thought I read at one time that CITES does not allow ANY cow Elephant to be shot, yet we shoot them all the time.

05 November 2014, 03:05

MJines

Would definitely be nice to know what the law/rules actually are . . . that was my sole purpose in raising the issue. I would worry that allowing bulls to be shot as tuskless would result in the same sorts of abuses that occurred in Hwange. Elephant that were clearly trophy bulls were being shot as ration elephant or management elephant. That is bullshit. If bulls with small ivory can be shot as tuskless, what qualifies the ivory as "small" and who makes the call as to whether a bull has "small" ivory? Unfortunately any system that is subjective will be abused by some.

05 November 2014, 05:08

dogcat

Why deleted?

05 November 2014, 05:57

jdollar

05 November 2014, 06:21

larryshores

I am also interested in a definitive answer.

I doubt that Sam was told correctly by his operator. I have seen PH's exercise EXTREME care when hunting tuskless to make sure there were no very small tusks.

This, once again, points out the reliance we place on these operators.

05 November 2014, 06:32

Steve Ahrenberg

I've said it before and I'll continue to do so, if someone see's something in a hunt report that seems odd or perhaps even illegal, a PM might be an appropriate response rather than the usual, GOTCHA.

The hunt report section just died.

05 November 2014, 06:37

lavaca

Perhaps it should simply be deleted.

05 November 2014, 06:43

MJines

You know from prior exchanges that I agree with you Steve in terms of someone being critical of a trophy, etc. In fact, if Saeed wants to make all the hunt reports threads that cannot be commented on, I am fine with that too and even suggested that before. However, if there is a question regarding the propriety of something, I see no issue with raising that. To the contrary, I think we would be remiss to allow incorrect or inaccurate information to potentially mislead others. There are many people that read these reports that would read that a bull can be shot as a tuskless and would assume that is the case -- and in fact it may be the case, I simply asked for an explanation and while it sounds wrong to me, perhaps it is acceptable. I see no problem with raising an issue that should be clarified so that anyone reading the report can understand what is okay and what is not okay.

05 November 2014, 06:49

Steve Ahrenberg

Hi Mike,
I understand, however if laws were unintentionally broken, a PM would be much appreciated, if it were I. Like Larry, I as we'll put much faith in my operator to keep my vacation legal.

05 November 2014, 07:08

MJines

I think this "too much faith in the operator" can be taken too far. If the operator tells you that you can shoot a bull and count it as a tuskless, does that take you off the hook? Wouldn't someone have an obligation to say, that does not sound right let me understand how that works? Maybe Sam did just that, who knows. I just think that the excuse that the operator said it was okay will only take you so far. Sure, there are lots of aspects where we have to trust the operator implicitly. But if the operator tells you something that does not add up on its face (e.g., you can shoot a sable and we can put it on the TR2 as a kudu), I do not believe the hunter can wiggle off the hook by claiming ignorance or blaming the operator. Again, I have no idea what Sam was told, what questions he asked, or most importantly, whether it is actually permissible to treat certain bulls as tuskless. That is why I asked the question. Apparently, others had the same question/reaction.

05 November 2014, 07:13

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Perhaps it should simply be deleted.

seems to me like it has....

05 November 2014, 07:26

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
I think this "too much faith in the operator" can be taken too far. If the operator tells you that you can shoot a bull and count it as a tuskless, does that take you off the hook? Wouldn't someone have an obligation to say, that does not sound right let me understand how that works? Maybe Sam did just that, who knows. I just think that the excuse that the operator said it was okay will only take you so far. Sure, there are lots of aspects where we have to trust the operator implicitly. But if the operator tells you something that does not add up on its face (e.g., you can shoot a sable and we can put it on the TR2 as a kudu), I do not believe the hunter can wiggle off the hook by claiming ignorance or blaming the operator. Again, I have no idea what Sam was told, what questions he asked, or most importantly, whether it is actually permissible to treat certain bulls as tuskless. That is why I asked the question. Apparently, others had the same question/reaction.

That's reasonable enough. Still doesn't change the fact that a PM to Sam asking if he might like to take this down prior any issues. But, that's just me. I have no issues with others doing what they've done. Just a shame a resource like this will become toxic. The only reports we see will be PG hunts from RSA.

Regards,

Steve

05 November 2014, 07:27

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Perhaps it should simply be deleted.

seems to me like it has....

Can't un-ring this bell Jerry.

Steve

05 November 2014, 07:39

jdollar

i have been gone for a while and missed the original posting. damn shame all around on several levels....

05 November 2014, 07:56

martin pieters

You get:
Trophy bulls ( minimum 10kg per side for export )
Tuskless ( NO ivory showing, either bull of cow depends on hunt permit issued by the authority )
Ration elephant ( not in all areas, typically not in Campfire areas, only safari areas, depending on permits issued by the authority ).

Trophy bulls, or ration bulls with ivory cannot be transferred for a tuskless. That being said, the operator can negotiate with the client and give him a tuskless tag instead of a trophy bull tag ( should no suitable bull be seen ).
Tuskless are just that, tuskless, NO ivory showing, the fine is currently $ 20 000 from national parks if an error is made and a cow shot with even a sliver of ivory.
Cheers

05 November 2014, 09:56

Saeed

There is an awful lot of "stretching" the rules in Zimbabwe, even by some large and previously well known companies with connections.

I understand some companies lease a prime area, and another area that has relatively little animals on it.

They then transfer their quota from the bad area to the prime area, and shoot the daylight out of it, ruining it for years!