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20 mm -- Any one here shoot one of these
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Picture of stradling
posted
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

I am thinking about going to the trouble getting a licence and shooting one of these

would like any input you guys have on the caliber


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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You'll never get a permit to posses in many states which means it can't travel to those states. The ammo isn't easily reloadable so you'll be relying on surplus military stuff which isn't all that easy to get or cheap. If you do decide to try and reload the brass, you'll not be able to get the #36 percussion primer and most of the production ammo is electrically primed anyway which doesn't care about firing pins. So, it's not very practical but, why not if you like to tinker.

tu2
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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And you'll need a big ass press which can unmangle the case necks cuz they are crimped like artillery shells and the brass has some aluminum in the alloy to make the cases stronger and more corrosion proof which also makes them a friggin' pain in the ass to size.
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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And, you'll need a dumpster of veeeeery slow powder like VV Sloth Blend which is expensive as hell and you'll need to make your own projectiles which is a big project by itself if you want em to actually fly right at the correct weight and chamber pressure.

There's prolly more I don't remember at the moment.
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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20mm no good ??
Will a quad .50 cal equal a 20mm ??

2020

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...G-scar-prove-it.html

Will this bison shrug off a 20mm ? Eeker
 
Posts: 7636 | Registered: 10 October 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by mete:
20mm no good ??
Will a quad .50 cal equal a 20mm ??

2020

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...G-scar-prove-it.html

Will this bison shrug off a 20mm ? Eeker


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Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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Thee are so many bad habits one could adopt. Why this one?
 
Posts: 2827 | Location: Seattle, in the other Washington | Registered: 26 April 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Brice:
Thee are so many bad habits one could adopt. Why this one?


Sounds like it would be the ultimate hoot, at least once or twice. Smiler

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Posts: 4211 | Location: Alta. Canada | Registered: 06 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Would it be the old Lahti round?
I've fired those. If you want to know what it's like, stand in front of a tire swing, one where they use a big semi - tire, and have someone swing it into your shoulder.
 
Posts: 4176 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Would it be the old Lahti round?


Same class of bang but no, different beasty.

20MM M103
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Thee are so many bad habits one could adopt. Why this one?

I love it! Story of my life perhaps?
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10329 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of stradling
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I knew it was to be a bit of a lift but my god dop gang

where is your sense of adventure

did you sell yours or do you still have some of the stuff i may need it


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
I knew it was to be a bit of a lift but my god dop gang

where is your sense of adventure

did you sell yours or do you still have some of the stuff i may need it


Loooong gone. I may have some primers in storage, will check next trip to the bunker.

Ch4D has dies

You can use a 50 BMG type fabricated press but would need to get a machinist with a clue to locate, open, an thread the top plate for bigger die body.

What's his name up in Oregon can make you a very slick press which is mo betta. Corbin IIRC.

The guys at CEB could probably make you some nice projos, they have the right gear. GSC could probably do em too.

The brass is around, gotta scrounge for it.

I'd work up a load with VV29N21 or whatever it's called - the slowest VV.
 
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I'm plenty adventurous but an assortment of "injuries" have kept me away from big guns in the last few years.
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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ok


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Wasn't the Boyes anti tank rifle a 20mm?
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10329 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Wasn't the Boyes anti tank rifle a 20mm?
Peter


No. Bout 14mm
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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You'll never get a permit to posses in many states which means it can't travel to those states.

As far as I know there isn't a single state that requires a permit to possess a 20 mm rifle (destructive device). A few states restrict them to licensees (FFL/SOTS), most require an ATF form 1 or 4 or have no regulations on them at all.

20 mm bullets and brass are available online. The WC870 powder works well for 20 mm (600 grains) and 50 BMG (235 grains)

Ranb


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Posts: 797 | Location: WA, USA | Registered: 29 December 2003Reply With Quote
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A few states restrict them to licensees (FFL/SOTS), most require an ATF form 1 or 4 or have no regulations on them at all.


An FFL is not personal ownership and an FFL is only issued to an entity which engages in the sale (business) of firearms. A hobbyist, collector, or gopher hunter is not. A guy who comingles his DD biz inventory with his personal property is asking for trouble. Get caught with one and it's a felony.

Ring up CAL DOJ and tell em you wanna buy a DD (an anti-tank gun specifically), they'll laugh and tellya to have a nice day (and put you on a watch list). Then you could ring the usual suspects and see how that goes. Try NJ, NY, MA, and HI for the most entertainment. BTB - anything 20mm utilizing fixed ammo, whether it's M103 or a squirrel gun is still a DD according to BATFE and you'll need a letter of opinion from them if you think your gear should be excepted. The letter probably won't get you any slack with local LEO or Judges if they're on a mission. You will get some big ass legal bills though.

Post some links for 20mm brass and bullets for sale. Some guys would like to buy em, I'm sure.

tu2
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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You should also consider where you are going to shoot this thing. Many ranges do not allow the 50 BMG.
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10329 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
An FFL is not personal ownership and an FFL is only issued to an entity which engages in the sale (business) of firearms. A hobbyist, collector, or gopher hunter is not. A guy who comingles his DD biz inventory with his personal property is asking for trouble. Get caught with one and it's a felony.

No kidding, nothing I said should have lead to you to believe I said so.

quote:
Ring up CAL DOJ and tell em you wanna buy a DD (an anti-tank gun specifically), they'll laugh and tellya to have a nice day (and put you on a watch list). Then you could ring the usual suspects and see how that goes. Try NJ, NY, MA, and HI for the most entertainment. BTB - anything 20mm utilizing fixed ammo, whether it's M103 or a squirrel gun is still a DD according to BATFE and you'll need a letter of opinion from them if you think your gear should be excepted. The letter probably won't get you any slack with local LEO or Judges if they're on a mission. You will get some big ass legal bills though.

Tell me something I don't know. Is 5 states many?

quote:
Post some links for 20mm brass and bullets for sale. Some guys would like to buy em, I'm sure.

tu2

How about you support the claim that "You'll never get a permit to posses in many states....". Show me the "many states" that restrict possession of DD's to licensees.

Finding brass is as simple as using a search engine.
http://www.diamondkbrass.com/20MM-ten-casing.html
http://www.cdvs.us/20MM-C49.aspx


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Posts: 797 | Location: WA, USA | Registered: 29 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:
quote:
Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
An FFL is not personal ownership and an FFL is only issued to an entity which engages in the sale (business) of firearms. A hobbyist, collector, or gopher hunter is not. A guy who comingles his DD biz inventory with his personal property is asking for trouble. Get caught with one and it's a felony.

No kidding, nothing I said should have lead to you to believe I said so.

You inferred that anyone can own a DD in any state. You contradict yourself and then argue you didn't?

quote:
Ring up CAL DOJ and tell em you wanna buy a DD (an anti-tank gun specifically), they'll laugh and tellya to have a nice day (and put you on a watch list). Then you could ring the usual suspects and see how that goes. Try NJ, NY, MA, and HI for the most entertainment. BTB - anything 20mm utilizing fixed ammo, whether it's M103 or a squirrel gun is still a DD according to BATFE and you'll need a letter of opinion from them if you think your gear should be excepted. The letter probably won't get you any slack with local LEO or Judges if they're on a mission. You will get some big ass legal bills though.



Tell me something I don't know. Is 5 states many?

Sounds like you know what you believe. Those are 5 of 50 states, feel free to get on the phone with the remaining 45 and get an opinion.

quote:
Post some links for 20mm brass and bullets for sale. Some guys would like to buy em, I'm sure.

tu2

How about you support the claim that "You'll never get a permit to posses in many states....". Show me the "many states" that restrict possession of DD's to licensees.

Already did, you're having a problem with the concept of "licensee". Refer to paragraph one.

Finding brass is as simple as using a search engine.

The first vendor you linked has no inventory. The second one is a reliable source you have done business with or just some random internet hit? You're demonstrating my point.

http://www.diamondkbrass.com/20MM-ten-casing.html
http://www.cdvs.us/20MM-C49.aspx


My experience with this issue is first hand via MANY conversations and much correspondence with CAL DOJ and BATFE NFA Branch. If you're confident my info is inaccurate, feel free to post some documentation from various jurisdictions and/or have the owner of Anzio appear here and set me straight. He may shed some light on where he's delivered Destructive Devices and under what license.

If you wanna school me, carry on but I can roll down to the PF if I wanna banter BS back & forth. They have a better sense of humor than you appear to.

tu2
 
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quote:
Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
You inferred that anyone can own a DD in any state. You contradict yourself and then argue you didn't?

I didn't really infer anything. I actually said a few states restrict them to licensees and most require an ATF form 1 or 4 or have no regulations on them at all.

Based on what I've read today CA, DE, HI, IA, MA, MN, NJ, NY (bans rockets), RI and VA (bans a few DD's) are the ones who prohibit non-licensee possession of DD's. This is 20% of the states, so more than the "few" I said earlier. Some people might think this is the same as many, but not me. Why not instead claim that most states allow possession of DD's instead?

quote:
Sounds like you know what you believe. Those are 5 of 50 states, feel free to get on the phone with the remaining 45 and get an opinion.

I was questioning your claims that many states restrict DD's. I'm still awaiting for you to provide evidence that your claim is true.

quote:
Already did, you're having a problem with the concept of "licensee". Refer to paragraph one.

I know what a licensee is. I also know what permits and tax stamp applications are. Tell us more about all of these many states that require a permit for a DD and how difficult it is to obtain.

quote:
If you're confident my info is inaccurate, feel free to post some documentation ....

You made the unsupported claim, it's your job to supply the documentation.

Ranb


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Posts: 797 | Location: WA, USA | Registered: 29 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:
quote:
You'll never get a permit to posses in many states which means it can't travel to those states.

As far as I know there isn't a single state that requires a permit to possess a 20 mm rifle (destructive device). A few states restrict them to licensees (FFL/SOTS), most require an ATF form 1 or 4 or have no regulations on them at all.

20 mm bullets and brass are available online. The WC870 powder works well for 20 mm (600 grains) and 50 BMG (235 grains)

Ranb


Re-read your initial statement.

Are we done with this?

diggin
 
Posts: 4828 | Location: IN YOUR POOL | Registered: 10 December 2015Reply With Quote
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We are done when you can tell me about the many states that that will not issue a "permit to possess" or whatever that is. The BATFE's forms 1 or 4 are not permits, just proof the tax was paid.

What do these permits look like anyway? Or are you calling tax stamps permits?


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Posts: 797 | Location: WA, USA | Registered: 29 December 2003Reply With Quote
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What would a 20 round unopened box of 20mm be worth?
 
Posts: 693 | Registered: 20 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Wasn't the Boyes anti tank rifle a 20mm?
Peter


No. Bout 14mm


There was one for sale at a SLC gun show about thirty years ago, back when there was a serious selection to be had...


TomP

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Posts: 12538 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:
As far as I know there isn't a single state that requires a permit to possess a 20 mm rifle (destructive device).


California prohibits .50 caliber and above, regardless of Class III license. I wonder if rifled shotgun barrels are legal in the strict sense.


TomP

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Posts: 12538 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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My friend has a 20mm Lahti that we have taken to the range before. Pretty fun to shoot, Ammo is ridiculously expensive (he said he sends his brass off to get sized), makes his own bullets on the lathe.

Gun is expensive and large (imagine taking your rifle to the range in an 8ft bed of a pickup wrapped in a blanket due to size)

Cost to feed is a lot.
 
Posts: 3137 | Location: Permian Basin | Registered: 16 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:
As far as I know there isn't a single state that requires a permit to possess a 20 mm rifle (destructive device).


California prohibits .50 caliber and above, regardless of Class III license. I wonder if rifled shotgun barrels are legal in the strict sense.


California only restricts .50 BMG, other .50 cals are OK, e.g. .50 DTC (a fairly common CA 50 cal). Necking down the 20mm Vulcan to .50 has yielded multiple variants, including the 20/50 Anzio and 50/20 PAC-NOR. The CH4D Rock Crusher is the only press that I know of that immediately accepts the 20mm Vulcan brass (CH4D has adapters to support virtually any thread 20mm Vulcan dies - which they also make). CDVS sells brass and primers (percussion and electric). Obviously, once you move to .50 cal there are tons of projectile options. Powder is available thru a seller on one of the major firearms and related selling sites. PTG sells 50/20 reamers.


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Posts: 77 | Location: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: 02 July 2012Reply With Quote
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Boyes was .55 cal. Had a Lahti in the early 80's I bought off a local guy, came with 20 rounds. Once they were gone I ended up selling it off. Used to shoot it in my uncles gravel pit, was a lot of fun. Paid $400 for it back then if memory serves. - dan


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$400 is a great deal for a Lahti.
 
Posts: 3137 | Location: Permian Basin | Registered: 16 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Well, it was 35-40 years ago. A fair bit more money then, than now. - dan


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Posts: 5243 | Location: Alberta | Registered: 05 October 2001Reply With Quote
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Mark Serbu is building a 20mm "short rifle. I saw the first couple of prototypes in his shop. Has an "interesting" shock absorber set into the mount. I believe he uses the current M-61 20mm case slightly modified. The barrel is cut from an M-61 Gatling gun so the projectile is fine.
 
Posts: 148 | Location: back in the USA | Registered: 28 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ELR Researcher:
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:
As far as I know there isn't a single state that requires a permit to possess a 20 mm rifle (destructive device).


California prohibits .50 caliber and above, regardless of Class III license. I wonder if rifled shotgun barrels are legal in the strict sense.


California only restricts .50 BMG, other .50 cals are OK, e.g. .50 DTC (a fairly common CA 50 cal). Necking down the 20mm Vulcan to .50 has yielded multiple variants, including the 20/50 Anzio and 50/20 PAC-NOR. The CH4D Rock Crusher is the only press that I know of that immediately accepts the 20mm Vulcan brass (CH4D has adapters to support virtually any thread 20mm Vulcan dies - which they also make). CDVS sells brass and primers (percussion and electric). Obviously, once you move to .50 cal there are tons of projectile options. Powder is available thru a seller on one of the major firearms and related selling sites. PTG sells 50/20 reamers.


Huh. Should've known better than to make a casual reading of the rules, where Democrats are involved.
So, along with the .490 BMG, there will maybe be .510 BMGs too?


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

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Posts: 12538 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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I've shot the Lahti, but not the Anzio Vulcan. I've been tempted by it, so if you end up with one in Utah I'd happily drive down from Idaho.

As far as primers, the "school solution" is to have a machinist make you some brass bushings to fit the Vulcan primer cup, then use CCI 35 or similar 50 BMG primers. Works fine.

Getting a press with sufficient clearance and "throw" is a bit of a challenge. I thought hard about a Vulcan, but surplus components aren't as plentiful as they were in the 1990s, and the performance doesn't really improve over .50 BMG except for raw muzzle energy. The BMG has a much wider array of bullets available.
 
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#1 - I'm talking about a .50/20. Seems you may be referring to a full diameter Vulcan (20mm). As best I know, Anzio has the only commercially-available rifle/action that shots 20mm Vulcans. They also have a .50/20.

The .50 BMG primer may be marginal when you are dealing with a 600+ grain case capacity. I'm using "factory" Vulcan electric primers. The associated custom "priming system" works fine with primed-only cases, I have yet to test with live rounds. That noted, A fellow I communicate with uses the .50 BMG primer with slow powders, so slow he can't get enough powder in the case to get any decent MVs.

The issue is not the press throw (the Vulcan is only about 1/8" longer).

Much heavier/longer bullets (1000 gr) might be an issue. Finding a press that will accept the required 2" and larger dies is a solved problem, the CH4D Rock Crusher press will work. That's what I have - for sizing. I seat with an arbor-press style die and a very tall arbor press (K&M).

At this point I'm waiting on my smith to chamber a couple of development and fire form barrels. Then the question will be whether to go further or selling off the proof-of-concept pieces and move on.

BTW, my own action design (screw action), not an Anzio. That's my primary, personal, "development" effort - NOT for commercial sales.


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Posts: 77 | Location: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: 02 July 2012Reply With Quote
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Something that big seems like it would be just right for Elmer Keith's forward primer tube
idea. "Ignites the front of the powder charge, reduces recoil, burns all the powder rather than blowing it out the barrel unburned by pressure from the rear".
Not an exact quote, but, fairly close. I just re-read: "Hell I was There" Last week.

George


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Posts: 5125 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I talked to the owner of Anzio a few years back .
He said he could had designed a 20mm with a wood stock and got it classified as a sporting rifle with a exemption . But Wasnt really interested in that .

20mm is pretty much a modern 8 bore .
 
Posts: 155 | Registered: 06 August 2010Reply With Quote
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go to drive tanks. saw g&a tv shooting one. think they said gun was 187# they will even let you shoot a Sherman tank main gun.
 
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