The Accurate Reloading Forums
Sept. Postal Match - The envelope please...
17 October 2002, 09:17
<Grinder>Sept. Postal Match - The envelope please...
It is time to reveal the results of the September Postal Match. A total of 11 100 yd. targets and 4 200 yd. targets were received. One 100 yd. target had to be disqualified due to only 3 shots being fired. The contestant acknowledged this with the target.
I've spent the last three hours relearning the in's and out's of the dial caliper (last time I used one was my junior year of high school some 10 years ago), measuring and remeasuring targets (for quality control), and tabulating results. It was quite fun and helped pass a slow night here at work.
I will be listing the shooter's name (J. Doe), nickname, group size, and cartridge fired. There was one target that didn't have the nickname listed, so if you see your name listed here, please speak up.
So, let's cut to the chase...
100 yard Match1. R. Bartman (DeadeyeDick) 0.305" 6mm TCU
2. J. Brock (Nashcat) 0.390" 223 Rem
3. T. Hudson (Buckweet) 0.435" (Bweet didn't list gun used)
4. B. Smith (Leibowitz) 0.563" 6.5 BR
5. S. Coombes (SeanVHA) 0.595" 22 LR
6. R. Fox (greyfox) 0.843" 223 x 1.85 (never heard of this cartridge)
7. W. Glick (no nickname) 0.959" 30-30 AI
8. D. Meyer (Bulldog) 0.985" 22 Hornet
9. M. Bonneite (UMB) 1.335" 357 Mag
10. R. Jakubowsky (RichJake) 1.864" 223 Rem
200 yard Match1. S. Coombes (SeanVHA) 0.454" 223 Rem
2. B. Smith (Leibowitz) 0.797" 6.5 BR
3. R. Jakubowsky (RichJake) 2.853" 223 Rem
4. M. Bonneite (UMB) 2.914" 357 Mag
So there you have it! Some mighty fine marksmen out there! I had no idea a 357 Mag would shoot 3" groups at 200 yards! I doubt if my SP101 could do it.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Congratulations to all of the shooters for actually hitting the paper!
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
This was my first time doing anything like this and I had a ton of fun! Certainly made getting the mail each day a lot of fun. If you guys ever have another match, I'd love to do the judging again. It keeps me on my toes and allows me to see some good shooting (better than I'm capable of). Heck, I'll be the permanent Accurate Reloading Postal Match judge if you want! I just had that much fun scoring these targets tonight.
Well, I guess that just about does it for me. Feel free to ask questions, ask for 2nd opinions, etc.
16 October 2002, 22:34
<Quarter Miler>Good shooting to all those that shot. I was waiting to hear Grinder, and hope you can continue the scoring. I really had no time to play this last time. I do like the fly target and hope to shoot it sometime. Good going guys!
16 October 2002, 22:39
Rich JakeGrinder
Thanks for scoring! I'm hoping to do a little better on the next go round. I did my target in one try, so I feel that I have a better shot with more time Available to me on future matches. It was good to do one of these types of shoots, I'm happy with my results for the first time trying this type of thing.
Rich Jake
16 October 2002, 22:41
<Grinder>RJ, I'll guarantee you that you shot better than I could have. I just don't have the facilities to shoot small groups. Most of my target shooting is done off a set of shooting sticks at work. Very hard to hold the guns as steady as I could off the sandbags.
17 October 2002, 01:28
<Leibowitz>Grinder, thanks for handling the drudge part of this match. I and everyone else do appreciate your work.
Well guys you see how it can work so lets get busy a have another one, it sure be a lot of fun and gives me another reason to practice more(this is for the wife's benefit)HEHEHE!
Thanks again Grinder!!!!
Bobby
![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif)
17 October 2002, 04:01
deadeyedickGrinder
Many thanks for your work. The fly might not be as much fun (scoring). By the way. Where do you work? The Post office
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
Rich
17 October 2002, 08:07
buckweetgrinder...sorry,,i fergot to putt it down,,,
it was a t/c VV barrel 16.5 inch pistol with weaver 2x8 sitting on top.
.257 TCU
NO WAY ?? I CAME IN THIRD ??? WOW,,I EVEN IMPRESSED MYSELFE...
BUCKWEET
17 October 2002, 11:45
NashcatGrinder,
I, too, would like to thank you for your time and effort in scoring this match. I also would like to thank all of those that competed in the match. We don't have a lot of competition shooting events in this area, so this was my first chance to compete with someone, other than myself. I'm looking forward to shooting the "Fly" target in the next match. Just a thought.....would a larger caliber be better for hitting the fly? Anyone have a .50 for sale?
One correction. I was shooting a .222 Rem instead of a .223 as reported above.
Nashcat
17 October 2002, 13:52
jshWell, a congrats to all. A fine job. Sounds like everyone had fun doing it. The suspense was killing me, and I didn't even have time to enter this one!
buckweet, bulldog, how did you two manage to get the powder burns off the paper?????
![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
Jeff
17 October 2002, 14:01
<pshooter>Thanks as well from me Grinder. Maybe next time I'll read the directions BEFORE I go to the range(DUHHH) and shoot my own self in the foot. Oh, what I meant to say was that really Was a 5 shot group...with two bullets in the same hole
Oh well, was fun anyway. Thanks again. mike
17 October 2002, 14:55
Magnum MikeCONGRATS TO ALL THE SHOOTERS!! I am glad that you all sent in targets (unlike me
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
)!! I hope that we will be able to continue this and that the next one suits those that werent able to shoot this time due to the time frame....
THANKS GUYS!!
17 October 2002, 22:14
<Grinder>quote:
Originally posted by deadeyedick:
Grinder
Many thanks for your work. The fly might not be as much fun (scoring). By the way. Where do you work? The Post office
Rich
I work the night shift at a wastewater treatment plant.
18 October 2002, 04:03
buckweetjsh...???? bulldog sent me a tip....
all temp,[cheer]...
it'll wash out anything...
buckweet
18 October 2002, 10:23
B_Koesquote:
Originally posted by Grinder:
I work the night shift at a wastewater treatment plant.
Ahhhhh...now it makes sense as to why you are so good at wading through all the crap on this forum!
18 October 2002, 17:13
KTS1Yep, I can appreciate the effort put in to postal matches, good job and and not a bad turn-out either.
Kudos to you
MSSMagnum you have email coming
Wes
[ 10-18-2002, 08:14: Message edited by: KTS1 ]29 October 2002, 08:57
Dave Jenkinscongrats all! how about listing barrel lengths with the next match results....Sean looks like you could have cleaned house with your .223 in the 100yd match.
Dave
29 October 2002, 09:20
Sean VHA #60013quote:
Originally posted by Dave Jenkins:
congrats all! how about listing barrel lengths with the next match results....Sean looks like you could have cleaned house with your .223 in the 100yd match.
Dave
I wanted the challenge of using a factory barrel: my most accurate factory barrel at that, the 22lr match 14". Also, my .223 seems a bit MORE accurate at 200-300yards than at 100 yards, due I believe to bullet stabilization being better at those distances than at the first 100 yards.
Next time I will use the 22mag Bellm rechamber at 100 :-)
29 October 2002, 10:32
B_Koesquote:
Originally posted by Sean VHA #60013:
Also, my .223 seems a bit MORE accurate at 200-300yards than at 100 yards, due I believe to bullet stabilization being better at those distances than at the first 100 yards.
If I remember right, isn't that barrel a 1:12" twist? I could rationalize your explaination if you're shooting 40gr bullets as well because that would put you in an "overstabiliation" situation. This doesn't destroy accuracy as much as the term might connote, but it can mean there is a bit of a wobble like a spiraling football. From information that I've read, the overstabilization will resolve itself somewhere around 8,000 calibers downrange. For this case, that would mean 1792" or about 150 yards. I didn't run those numbers before starting on this rambling, but it does fit nicely into this scenario.
*Oops* that actually translates into 150 feet! Which would mean about 50 yards downrange. Oh well, another theory blown to crap!
[ 10-29-2002, 01:48: Message edited by: B_Koes ]
29 October 2002, 11:14
Sean VHA #60013Aye! Often it seems that there is no rational explanation for these things, then a few years down the raod someone's lightbulb clicks on and the sollution is made evident to all!
My explanation? The barrel typically groups into 1/2" or better at 100 yards with the same load, and stabilizes even better at 200-300 yards, and while not "wobbly" by any means at any distance, it must settle in a bit better the further it flys. Why? I could speculate a half dozen viable reasons, any or all of which could be true, or could NOT
All I know for certain are the demonstrable results
29 October 2002, 11:41
jshAlong with barrel lengths it would be interesting to know what power and type of scope setups are being used.
Anybody interested in metalic sight at these ranges?? Just a thought.
Jeff
29 October 2002, 18:38
Mike BellmI hadn't been paying attention to the postal shoot, but took a look tonight.
Question to Rich Bartman, is that the 6mm benchrest barrel we made into a Contender barrel you won the 100 yard with?
Good shootin'. Guess you are Deadeye Dick afterall.
Mike
30 October 2002, 07:50
B_Koesquote:
Originally posted by Sean VHA #60013:
The barrel typically groups into 1/2" or better at 100 yards with the same load, and stabilizes even better at 200-300 yards, and while not "wobbly" by any means at any distance, it must settle in a bit better the further it flys
Maybe you misunderstood my explaination. Even a stabilized accurate bullet is "wobbling" as it goes on its merry way. I posted a link (which unfortunately I don't have at the moment) but it did a great job of mathematically describing the flight of a bullet as it relates to stabilizing/unstabilizing factors.
Mike used an appropriate analogy regarding the flight characteristic of an overstabilized bullet which can be likened to the spinning of a top. The top seems to be a little wobbly at first and then "settles" into a nice tight spin...until being overcome with friction. Our bullet doesn't really reach that point as it generally finds its target before that point.
I don't proclaim to know a lot about long range accuracy, but I know that bench rest guys like to use a relatively slow twist for the given bullet weight that they shoot. 1:14" twist rates for 52gr .224 bullets and 60-65gr .243 bullets. I suppose that this may have changed and you can call BS if you know better.
30 October 2002, 07:53
B_KoesI would like to emphatically convey to you that I mean no disrespect to the "King" of the 200 yard target. I am quite sure that when it comes to putting bullet on the paper, that I would not have been close to your excellent sub .5" group.
30 October 2002, 08:39
Sean VHA #60013Originally posted by B_Koes:
quote:
Maybe you misunderstood my explaination. Even a stabilized accurate bullet is "wobbling" as it goes on its merry way. Originally posted by B_Koes:
[/QB]
OK, I think I understand what you mean. Perhaps I was not clear in the original post:
What I am saying is that a perfectly stabilized bullet will often spiral like a "knuckle ball" over the course of the first 100 yards or so [depending upon bullet weight to bore size to twist rate] and settle out beyond that, in the 200-300 yard range. Why? I am not sure, though I have a few theories.
What I DO know is that one may observe this by placing targets out every so often, shooting for dead center, and then watching the placement of group "pattern" in relation to the POI. It is easy to see.
Call BS? Naaaa, discussing this sort of thing is both fun and educational, and hey, no disrespect taken! Discussion is both fun and profitable
[ 10-29-2002, 23:47: Message edited by: Sean VHA #60013 ]
30 October 2002, 09:11
B_KoesOkay...so I had to go back and find that URL for reference. I went to it to refresh my memory and found a great page that describes the flight of a bullet and makes reference to a stable bullet's tendency to become more stable as it flies. Here's the reference...
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig12.htmI think I pick up more information every time I visit that website!
Sean, have you performed the experiment using targets at several intermediate distances? I wouldn't think that the "wobble" would be large enough to see a POI change, but who knows. I wish that I had a convenient range to perform such tasks.
30 October 2002, 11:22
Sean VHA #60013quote:
Originally posted by B_Koes:
Sean, have you performed the experiment using targets at several intermediate distances? I wouldn't think that the "wobble" would be large enough to see a POI change, but who knows. I wish that I had a convenient range to perform such tasks.
Yes, though it is very slight. Based on what I have seen, I am guestimating that it is on the order of 1/8" to 1/4" Point Of Impact group change every 50-75yards clockwise relative to the Point Of Aim for this load.
I have not included this deduction in the text of the test page of my site, as there are too many variables (varying wind, barrel heat-up, load to load micro-inconsistancies, the effects of sun-warmed cases upon the powder charge, internal bore residue altering POI over time, etc etc....)that could possibly account for and produce such an observable phenomimon, for this to be a respectable scientific conclusion on my part.
Right now, it is just and educated WAG
Perhaps someone like Don Shearer or mike Bellm has some obserations on this slight knuckle-ball spiraling effect of a bullet's path, and would comment?
[ 10-30-2002, 02:27: Message edited by: Sean VHA #60013 ]