Barrel Maker Brand Loyalty and Debates

02 July 2003, 16:59

<V.V. Dave>

It seems to me that one could make a point on customers of the various barrel makers. Fans tend to be very vocal and loyal to one barrel maker. The points for barrel makers can be made back and forth with good points and bad. The question that plagues me is can a discussion be had between two shooters who are opposing brand users without it boiling down to personal attacks?

I use this in quote form to break up the post:

quote:
A good example of this was my college roommate. He was a democrat from head to toe. I am a strong republican. We had some good debates with points being made about Clinton vs. Reagan and Bush Sr. however the conversation eventually dwindled down to personal attacks, but were still good natured. Had I not known him as well as I did, I think the personal attacks would have led to something a little more physical.

Your thoughts?

[ 07-02-2003, 08:00: Message edited by: V.V. Dave ]

02 July 2003, 17:36

apollo

Depends on the individuals involved I guess and how much experience each have had with the various barrel makers. I do not have a particular barrel producer that I'm loyal to because I firmly believe that there are quiet a few people or shops that produce good work. I have had many contender barrels and most have been factory barrels. I've never had a inaccurate factory barrel even though there are some people that like to think that all factory barrels as well as all other barrels other than the ones he makes or reworks are bad. The only bad barrel I've ever had was a custom barrel that I ordered from Fred at Bullberry. It was a 22 inch bull in 223 that the reamer had been ran in to deep and they did not catch the mistake before it left the shop. Fred replaced the barrel without question but the barrel was not as accurate as I thought it should be so I sold it instead of having to wait on another run of 223 barrels. Even though I had this mishap with Bullberry, it would not make me shy away from their work in the future. I hear and see people tell of great shooting barrels from Bullberry all the time. I've also heard very good things about SSK and Virgin Valley. Although I have had a run end with Mike Bellm on a different matter, I believe he does very good work as well but not any better than some of the other shops that specialize in TC's. I guess it just all depends on the individual kinda like diehard Ford and Chevy fans, they rarely can have a discussion without it turning to personal attacks at some point.

02 July 2003, 18:10

<V.V. Dave>

That is exactly what I am referring to. You have the different clubs T/C factory-SSK-Bullberry-Virgin Valley-Bellm-OTT-Reeder-Van Horn-Others
From my experiences the factory guys are pretty vocal, Bullberry and Bellm fans are a die hard band of brothers, and the rest of the clubs follow the pattern.
My problem is that while fans are trying to show loyalty they often have to put another product, person, or trait down to look better. If that is what is required for a direct comparison then is the product really that good if these are the steps required?

The above points are not brand or person specific, but a generalization of ideas that tend to get thrown around forums without consideration, in my opinion.

[ 07-02-2003, 09:46: Message edited by: V.V. Dave ]

02 July 2003, 19:28

Bobby Tomek

I've had or have barrels from Bullberry, Van Horn, SSK, Virgin Valley, Mike Bellm, Ingram, the TC Custom Shop and , of course, TC factory barrels. The only "problem" barrels I had were factory or TC Custom Shop.

As far as the "customs" go, my Ingram barrels have served me well but have been my least favorite of the lot. All, of course, were purchased used, and most have been tapered. They shoot very well, but I prefer a heavier setup.

I've had great luck with the others in terms of accuracy and performance. No, they all haven't been perfect. I had a brand new little wildcat Contender barrel that was left so full of polishing compound (or something!) in the lug area that a sound lockup was not possible. I've received a barrel that was the wrong length, wrong finish, had the wrong forend, wrong forend set-up, etc., yet I kept it (still have it) because it has given sub-1.5" groups at 300 yards with hunting loads. I've had jobs that ran longer much longer than normal, but I still come back because I know the product is going to be well worth the wait.

Some of the makers are outspoken; others are passive. We can choose to agree or not. But in the end, there's no arguing that accuracy is our primary goal and the common denominator which keeps us coming back time and again.

And to that end, we can all exercise a personal preference. For me, I like them all. I do feel that one particular outfit is a bit pricey and no longer buy "new" from them; but then, no one forces me to buy a new barrel, either. I can shop the classifieds & auctions if I so choose.

02 July 2003, 19:30

tommyn

Dave I don't have a lot of barrels but at this time I have 2 Virgin Valley barrels, 2 Bullberry and one new OTT barrel. They all are shooters with good craftmanship. I'm very fond of the NEW (get that) OTT barrel. Some people are negetive just in order to get attention or make believe they are something special. Its easy to hide behind a computer moniter and put others down. Words on a screen that in real life would get your butt kicked is easy for some to hide behind. Just my input.

03 July 2003, 09:57

LDHunter

While it's no secret that I'm a rabid Virgin Valley fan, I feel that I've retained a fair amount of objectivity.

VVCG, SSK, and Bellm barrels are all excellent products and any complaints I've ever heard about any of them are so scarce as to be almost non-existant.

Fred Smith at Bullberry has recently undergone some severe growing pains and although he has a loyal following that did their best to defend him it seems that we (TC-List) finally agreed that his quality control has/had slipped to almost a dismal level in the last year or two. Fred has been more than willing to fix the mistakes but it seems that there have been a LOT of them. He seems sincere in his desire to get back on track.

TC's quality and quality control has slipped pretty badly since their fire but compared to most of the other firearm manufactureres in America I think they've done pretty well and their costumer service is some of the best in the industry. I think that many of the complaints have come from people that remember when their work was some of the very best in the industry and at a fraction of the cost of their competition.

Since Tom Campbell died it seems that Dave Van Horne has really let down the people on the group purchases and many have been left with deposits paid and multiple promises broken. Trust in Dave's word is pretty low now and I don't know if he's delivered a barrel in 2003 or not.

Some of the new players in the custom barrel business will likely emerge as fine quality barrelmakers but their volume will probably be quite low in the first year or two.

I really have my eyes on Mike Sirois (http://www.mbmco.net). He brings some innovative ideas to barrel making and has some pretty impressive machinery at his disposal.

There are several barrel makers that I've left out because I'm largely ignorant of their work.

All in all the TC barrel making industry has some dedicated craftsmen that show a lot of pride in their work and all seem willing to do their very best to produce great quality barrels at reasonable prices and are willing to put up with us, the TC shooters and collectors, and our incredibly picky requirments and complaints.... [Wink]

Thanks Guys!!!!

$bob$

02 July 2003, 22:20

Rich Jake

Dave
I have a barrel from SSK, Bullberry, VVCG,Bellm rechamber,T/C & one from OTT on order. To date I'll tell you that each barrel has Good points. Every once in a while you can find mistakes. I think that for my purposes(hunting & target shooting) I could probably get by with anyone of them.

I do think that quality control should be maintained across the board. No matter who the manufacturer is. That seems to be where some businesses are lacking at times. As far as custom makers are concerned, there's nothing more aggrivating to make a specific order & be handed something else. After a long wait.

I can discuss the merrits of each barrel maker without resorting to name calling. This doesn't help anyones cause.

Rich Jake

03 July 2003, 01:25

KTS1

I think that people can have a debate on the diffrent merits, pro and con of the various bbl makers or ammo makers or car makers or cigar makers without resorting to personal attacks, IF both parties are versed on the subject. The problem here is you have one person who read the whole book and one who just looked at the pictures. Both make good points for awhile and then the guy that just looked at the pictures starts running out of subject matter, finds himself in the corner with egg on his face and resorts to personal attacks and non-issue points in an attempt to save face. Some people would rather lose a friend, or alieninate themselves from a group rather than admit they might be wrong or don't have enough info to continue the debate.
I haven't been fortunate enough to use all the diffrent products out there so I can't really offer an opinion. However, I do know who my friends are and as hard as they are to come by these days I will back them up 100%.

I would like to see a debate among the actual makers of the product rather than listen to the opinions of a someone with half the facts, perferably on the range where the holes could speak for themselves [Big Grin]

03 July 2003, 01:41

<Dalton>

Dave,

I would echo Bobby Tomeks comments. I have owned barrels from Bullberry, Bellm, Van Horn, TC and several of your barrels as well. The only ones I couldn't get to shoot sub-moa were the factory barrels.

I have to admit I have lost some interest in this forum because of the behavior of some of the members towards each other. I drift back and forth between this and another site that shall remain nameless.

I hope this forum becomes more focussed on the exchange of information and less on bashing each other. [Frown]

David Hea

03 July 2003, 02:19

T/C nimrod

Maybe another thread - but I have a question about custom barrels vs. factory ammunition. A friend of my purchased a .17 Rem/Bulberry barrel (used) and was having some issues with the cases collapsing in the shoulder. Only happened with one type of factory load. Is it possible that the custom specs are too close to safely use anything but handloads tailored to each barrel?

Note: the barrel as far as I remember was a good shooter - it was the ammo that was an issue. The rounds that collapsed in the Bulberry had no issues in a factory .17 rem barrel.

03 July 2003, 03:14

skb2706

I am right now in the middle of my first custom barrel order after owning several TC barrels of varying quality. If i would have known when I ordered the thing what I know now I know it would have been different. I order a 15" .221 with foreend and hanger bar assembly from BB. We are now at the 5 month waiting point and no end in site. So much for loyalty........I guess I need to understand why its takes so long to make .....what do they use for tooling...ice pick and a nail file? Is it standard for a custom barrel maker to take that long or are they just jerking me.

03 July 2003, 04:33

Helicopter Bill

I'd like to see the barrel-makers discussion also. Have Bellm, VVCG, SSK, Bullberry, etc talk specifics on how they do their work, what their tolerances are and what difference they think it makes. After reading a number of reloading books and gunsmithing books the tolerances modern guns are made to is almost worrisome (if you should get a chamber that is at the max allowable and a cartridge at the min allowable the excess headspace seems to be in the almost dangerous range). The only web sites that talk specifics that I've found are Bellm's and VVCG (at least explaining what they do on thier new barrel blanks). So a discussion that has specifics (i.e. I cut chambers to within .00x of minimum length and aligned withing .00x of bore) might be both informative and enlightening. Although getting gunsmiths to talk about how they do a job might be hard since they'd be telling the competition how to do it "their way". So I guess we'll be stuck with the normal consumer way of doing it, talk to folks that have one and ask them if they're happy with it, then buy one yourself. I did, I'm happy, better accuracy than I NEED to hunt whitetails but nice to have when I'm shooting paper.
Bill

03 July 2003, 06:02

Dave Jenkins

Of the three custom Encore barrels I have recieved from three different vendors only one did not have to be returned for finish or function flaws. One of them three times and I wasnt being picky. The one that was fine the first time was also the most expensive.
I figure its my obligation to to be loyal to the folks that provide me with the best product for the least amount of $ in the least amount of time with the least amount of hassle. I rather spend my time shooting than standing in line at the post office waiting to ship a flawed barrel back to a gunsmith...but maybe thats just me. [Roll Eyes]

03 July 2003, 07:08

OldFart

I expect the product to be right the first time. I'm not a complainer. I usually don't even send the product back. I just don't buy from that company anymore.

03 July 2003, 07:46

Rich Jake

quote:
Originally posted by T/C nimrod:
Only happened with one type of factory load. Is it possible that the custom specs are too close to safely use anything but handloads tailored to each barrel?

Note: the barrel as far as I remember was a good shooter - it was the ammo that was an issue. The rounds that collapsed in the Bulberry had no issues in a factory .17 rem barrel.

It sounds like the throat is much shorter than OAL of that brand of ammo, or the sizing of the brass is too long. That would be my guess from what you have posted. I would just make a note of that brand, if you are considering using factory ammo & avoid it in the future. If the barrels dimensions are tighter it isn't necessraily a bad thing in most cases. That's something that's easy to live with.
Rich Jake

03 July 2003, 07:48

Mike Bellm

It's me, back again with some final thoughts for a new topic.... saw this one, and had to have a look see.

What I see here is MOST encouraging..... some good critical thinking that brings into focus important issues that effect what you get for your shooting dollars.

One of my main goals has been to educatate as much as I can on the points "the industry" as a whole, custom and TC factory, really don't want you to know.

And if you think I am kidding about this, you should have seen the reaction I got at Tulsa from Ed Kirkpatrick when a mutual customer of ours bought a new barrel from Ed, then brought it over to my table and poked the borescope into it!

I KNEW full well that the presence and use of a borescope at a gunshow would spread massive "hate and dicontent," and it did! But just wait. I may end up floating face down in a river somewhere, but if I ever start doing the gunshows again on a regular basis, you can just about "make book on it" that I will have not only a borescope at the shows, but have it hooked up to a camera and TV monitor. And if I can get really serious, there will be TWO complete setups where you can view and compare two separate barrels at once. I may have to have two body guards, but I'll take that chance. And you can bet I will have a pretty active crowd around the table to boot.

Point is.... very simply.....you can see a tremendous difference from one barrel to the next. Face it, folks are either put to death or walk based on ballistic forensics. If trained scientists paid good salaries using high tech equipment can split hairs and supposedly always find differences from barrel to barrel, doesn't it follow that more gross differences exist also.... differences that can be readily observed? No two barrels are exactly alike in all respects. That is a fact.

It is also a fact that the procedures used by each manufacturer produces certain frequently recurring characteristics, be it in regard to the relative straightness of the bore, chamber dimensions, chamber alignment to the bore, or concentricity and squareness to the bore of the crown. There are also very definite trends in regard to tolerances of the hinge pin holes and lockup.

Debate among barrel makers is not likely to occur for some of the reasons cited.... while the reason for not debating would not likely be due to the competition knowing trade secrets as it would be to exposing deficiencies in procedure to the public.

Rehashing the question posed at Alliance, NE last year about where the best place is to buy barrels, my answer was that NO ONE SOURCE is best, each is a compromise.

I closed my remarks with the suggestion that shooters should learn what aspects are important in a barrel and learn enough to write a purchase order specifying the tolerances that would satisfy the contractual nature of the purchase order. I would add to that the suggestion that there be full reimbursement for all shipping costs incurred by the purchaser and compensation for time lost sending the barrel back to get it made right.

Ample time should be given to the maker to get it right the first time, but when it hits your door, it should be right.

This business of yo yoing barrels back and forth costs everyone money, is not necessary, and is in my opinion something that should not be tolerated by shooters to the extent it is.

With a solid purchase order plopped on their desk, barrel makers would either comply (not likely) or reject the order. If they reject the order, then you the buyer have probably just saved yourself a lot of grief and money.... then you'd have to find something else to talk about on the forums. [Big Grin]

A maker that observes good tolerances and quality control should not even hiccup at the sight of a reasonably written purchase order. The real world of machining marches to a different drummer than the barrel makers do, and it is about time the barrel makers be taken to task and held accountable just as the machine shops are.

One shop I am in contact with here manufactures fuel pump rotors for jet fighter engines, and you can bet your backside they observe tolerances and purchase order specifications like a second nature. This same thinking, at least in some part, should extend to barrels.

Would it raise the prices of barrels? I don't think so. I think the money saved on "warranty" work would more than pay for what is required to simply do it right the first time.

If it isn't done right the first time, reality is that in the end YOU are the one paying for the mistakes.... not the maker who simply adds it into his costs and passes the costs on to you.

Now..... is it any wonder many others in "the trade" would like to see me go away? I rock the boat, and they don't like it when you learn the details and put pressure on the makers instead of being all fat, dumb, and happy.... ever so grateful for "great customer service." Yeah, right.

With a few notable exceptions [Wink]

you guys deserve better.

Gotta agree with VV Dave. But the trend is to launch personal attacks when folks don't know enough to debate technical details. The goal is or should be to get the best barrels we can for the money spent... shouldn't it?

Mike, THE TC Heretic (aka THE TC Hairy Tick)

03 July 2003, 08:19

Hunt4Fun

Things get personal because virtually none of us have enough equipment/knowledge to be able to determine one maker is better than the other so it comes down to personal preference and perceptions. People seem to start getting personal when logical arguments have been exhausted and neither side has presented a clear case. Besides, how many barrels would you have to examine before a statistically significant comparison could be made and would it really ever matter much in the field. Rocky Raab did quite a bit of testing along these lines and couldn't determine a custom barrel was really much better than a factory based on his accuracy testing. Rocky's Article

My basis for loyalty comes down to how I'm treated as a customer, including delivery time, and the features of the product. I had one dealing with VV concerning a new cartridge I wanted a barrel for (it wasn't you Dave) where the person didn't know what he was talking about and decided that yelling at me would make him right, so I choose not to buy VV. In a discussion with an individual at Bullberry I got a rather condecending attitude and I didn't appreciate that. Both of these instances were my first contact with these two companies and most likely my last. I've heard both make good products but I'm loyal to the one that has always treated me right as a customer and makes a good product too. I'm not too vocal, other than to my close friends, I just quietly send my check to the other guy. It's lots more fun to watch a good fight than to actually be in it.

03 July 2003, 10:06

Magnum Mike

quote:
Originally posted by V.V. Dave:
The question that plagues me is can a discussion be had between two shooters who are opposing brand users without it boiling down to personal attacks?

Sure, BUT that assumes that both parties are mature adults and open minded enough to respect the others opinionï¿½..

03 July 2003, 18:02

<V.V. Dave>

quote:
Originally posted by KTS1:
I think that people can have a debate on the diffrent merits, pro and con of the various bbl makers or ammo makers or car makers or cigar makers without resorting to personal attacks, IF both parties are versed on the subject. The problem here is you have one person who read the whole book and one who just looked at the pictures. Both make good points for awhile and then the guy that just looked at the pictures starts running out of subject matter, finds himself in the corner with egg on his face and resorts to personal attacks and non-issue points in an attempt to save face.

This is probably the best answer I have seen yet. Good example. Maybe the big picture books (read Current Gun mags) need to be a little more technical. For this reason I enjoy reading Rifle, Handloader, small caliber news, and precision shooting publications. I still glance at Shooting time and G n'A, but I find myself reading the smaller mags. (Of course I am an odd lot in my own right)

04 July 2003, 15:35

ACRecurve

V.V.Dave,

Please furnish me with Encore barrels from all of the makers mentioned above--your choice of caliber, 26" long, heavy sporter contour, matte blue--and I'll give you the most objective report on the results of my research that I can! [Wink]

Oops--I thought this was the smart-ass forum. [Big Grin]

Good Hunting,