Thsi may not belong in this section, but certainly not in Shotgun reloading...

I noticed that Remington now markets an "Ultimate Home Defence" 12 ga load with duplex # 2 & # 4 pellets. ( At $21.94 for 10 shells)

Why would this be needed? What's wrong with plain old "shot" of any size?


Just curious...

Thanks

Why would this be needed? What's wrong with plain old "shot" of any size?


Just curious...

Thanks[/QUOTE]


EVERYTHING!!!
Shot does not have the weight necessary to penetrate to the vitals. It will destroy a tremendous amount of tissue but it will be superficial. When shot hits a media, be it hard or soft, it acts as individuals not as a 1oz. load. If you have a home invader that is high or very determined you need to get to vitals to end the show. When actual tests are done with buck shot, in gel shot through 4 layers of denim, 00 and 000 are the only ones that make the cut.
Personally I think Remington is setting a bad president suggesting #2-4 shot is adequate defense ammo.

Think of it this way. How many times have you found shot left in a dove. Thats only 2" of penetration!

Perry

Thanks, but a Dove is shot a 30-40 yards, and an intruder will be shot at 3 to 10 feet...

Would it make much differance then?

Doubtful. Penetration is a factor of weight not velocity.

Perry

About the best SD load is the 12 ga , 00 buck, reduced recoil. Reduced recoil as it's easier to handle, 00 buck to give penetration to vitals .

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
About the best SD load is the 12 ga , 00 buck, reduced recoil. Reduced recoil as it's easier to handle, 00 buck to give penetration to vitals .

00 buck is the way to go if penetration through walls is not a factor to consider (kids in next room)

Go to the range and see what some 7 1/2s do group wise at "in the home distance". Unless you have a really large home that is.

Federal Flight Control is supposed to make some really good stuff. try shotgunworld.com and the go to the defense shotgun section.

Duplex loads seem like a novelty item for home defense to me. Considering the ranges involved, why trade a portion of the better performing pellets for a few more pellets that perform worse?

If you are going to mix your shot, what about a buck and ball load??

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/...34-multidefense-buck

Gentlemen, with out getting into the gruesome details, back in the day when I was on the job, I saw a lot of people shot with a shotgun...

Shot with "bird shot" and buckshot.

Baised on what I have seen, I would NEVER, on purpose, want to use anything less than No4 Buck for personal protection.

Everything considered Single O [single ought] is probably the best all round...

However the new low recoil OO buck has a lot to recommend it for indoor use as it kicks a LOT less and still packs a serious punch up close.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, with out getting into the gruesome details...

Attending the autopsy of a shotgun victim is always interesting. Plus you rarely get to interview a survivor from a shotgun shooting.

Most of the shootings I've seen were with the "birdshot" sizes, in fact I don't remember any that were with "buckshot" size pellets. That could be because buckshot isn't legal for hunting here in WV so few people buy it.

There is a lot of voodoo science/opinion around shotgun ballistics. I believe that a lot of people prefer the finer shot due to fear of over penetration and some cite a "rathole" effect from close range fine shot and believe it's more effective than buckshot. Remington first started selling duplex loads for turkey hunting and I guess some sales person decided to re-label it as "Ultimate Home Defense" and get more bucks from their loading machine.

FWIW, my repel boarders shotgun is loaded with 3" 000 buck and the side saddle is filled with Brenneke's 3" 1 1/4 oz slug. If that's not enough then I need to go get the Lott...

Physics is physics. Individual shot acts as....individual shot. Therefore, get large shot ie 00-000 buck. A good wad may hold bird shot together for an inch or so but it isn't getting to the vitals.

Here's a thought. What if Federal made lead buckshot in the flight stopper configuration? Of course for political reasons they could not call it black cloud or it would go the way of the black talon .

Perry

Whether 00 buck or 8's, all I know is I don't want to be shot with ANY shotgun load! When I've had a shotgun around the house for safety reasons, I've usually just had whatever is handy to put in the gun, be it #4s or whatever other shot size was handiest at the time. I guess If I were worried about penetration, I'd choose HeviShot.

You get smacked in the chest with 1 1/4 ounces of ANYTHING going 1.300 fps at less than 15 feet, and it'll give you something serious to think about, if you ever get up at all.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
About the best SD load is the 12 ga , 00 buck, reduced recoil. Reduced recoil as it's easier to handle, 00 buck to give penetration to vitals .

No. 1 Buck gives you nearly twice the number of pellets, and they're almost the same size.

00 buck is 0.38" about 8 pellets in a load.

#1 Buck is 0.36" about 15 pellets.

Remington sells a 5 pack. Haven't priced them lately.

#6 birdshot, 1 1/4 oz. or more in a magnum load is damned lethal at "defensive ranges" -- 6 to 20 ft. Shoot one at a piece of 1/2" plywood from five paces if you need proof.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Randell:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
About the best SD load is the 12 ga , 00 buck, reduced recoil. Reduced recoil as it's easier to handle, 00 buck to give penetration to vitals .

No. 1 Buck gives you nearly twice the number of pellets, and they're almost the same size.

00 buck is 0.38" about 8 pellets in a load.

#1 Buck is 0.36" about 15 pellets.

Remington sells a 5 pack. Haven't priced them lately.

#6 birdshot, 1 1/4 oz. or more in a magnum load is damned lethal at "defensive ranges" -- 6 to 20 ft. Shoot one at a piece of 1/2" plywood from five paces if you need proof.

JD
While bird shot may go through plywood it will not go through 2 pieces of plywood. And if you put a watermelon behind a piece of plywood you will get almost no penetration into the watermelon. FACTS are FACTS, bird shot IS NOT lethal to humans at any range!!! If life depnds on it us buckshot it is a proven KILLER. Hitting someone with bird shot will probably DETER them but it will not kill them.

Perry

I use No. 4 Buck in the 12 gauge and No. 3 Buck in the 20. I do have some concerns about over penetration and the penentration tests I've seen tells me that these two loads are more than adequate.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

JD
While bird shot may go through plywood it will not go through 2 pieces of plywood. And if you put a watermelon behind a piece of plywood you will get almost no penetration into the watermelon. FACTS are FACTS, bird shot IS NOT lethal to humans at any range!!! If life depnds on it us buckshot it is a proven KILLER. Hitting someone with bird shot will probably DETER them but it will not kill them.

Perry

Stand right there while a blow a hole in you with a TRAP LOAD of #6 from "defense distances." I promise you it will be lethal.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Randell:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

JD
While bird shot may go through plywood it will not go through 2 pieces of plywood. And if you put a watermelon behind a piece of plywood you will get almost no penetration into the watermelon. FACTS are FACTS, bird shot IS NOT lethal to humans at any range!!! If life depnds on it us buckshot it is a proven KILLER. Hitting someone with bird shot will probably DETER them but it will not kill them.

Perry

Stand right there while a blow a hole in you with a TRAP LOAD of #6 from "defense distances." I promise you it will be lethal.

Yeah, that's gonna happen
If you were to shoot someone at 15' with bird shot it would NOT be lethal. THAT IS PROVEN FACT!!!

Perry

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...SHOTGUN%20AMMUNITION

Scientific evidence on shotgun defense.

Perry

Perry,

Taken from the Firearms Tactical Institute that you referenced:

quote:

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Fine shot will most certainly cause a fatal wound at room distances. We occasionally get hunting fatalities during spring gobbler season at 20 - 40 yard ranges with shot sizes like the defense load the original poster questioned.

Would I use those loads myself? No, not if I've got any better choice, but they would do more than "leave a mark" if fired at a person who was raiding your liquor cabinet.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
Perry,

Taken from the Firearms Tactical Institute that you referenced:

quote:

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Fine shot will most certainly cause a fatal wound at room distances. We occasionally get hunting fatalities during spring gobbler season at 20 - 40 yard ranges with shot sizes like the defense load the original poster questioned.

Would I use those loads myself? No, not if I've got any better choice, but they would do more than "leave a mark" if fired at a person who was raiding your liquor cabinet.

I never said they wouldn't "leave a mark". Do you think I somewhere insinuated that??? I would imagine bird shot would turn flesh to hamburger, very messy hamburger. My point of contention is that it is inadequate as a s.d. load. Could it kill someone, yes BUT more often than not it creates nasty, shallow wounds.
If someone is serious about s.d. they need to be educated on what really works. Misinformation will get you killed going into battle. If you are going to defend your life and the lives of the ones you love, do it with the equipment that stands the HIGHEST probability of working.
I did a little research on turkey hunting deaths and it appears that most fatalities occur with injuries to the neck. I would assume it would be asphyxiation from the air way being damaged and hemorrhaging from the jugular.
What did you see?

Perry

With the exception of contact or near contact wounds, I cannot remember seeing anyone killed with a shotgun and bird shot.

I would not want to bet MY life on it on, not on purpose anyway.

Perry,

You'll note the smiley following my "leave a mark" statement. I'll assume that you forgot yours in here somewhere:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
FACTS are FACTS, bird shot IS NOT lethal to humans at any range!!! If life depnds on it us buckshot it is a proven KILLER. Hitting someone with bird shot will probably DETER them but it will not kill them.
Perry

We're both saying the same thing, birdshot is not a good idea for defensive use. Kind of like the discussions in the African forum about some rifles being a "hunting" caliber and others being a "stopping" caliber, birdshot can cause death but it isn't a reliable stopper.

Remington has relabeled some turkey loads for S.D. and while they will look good shooting at paper/cardboard targets at the range these same loads will be rather less impressive used on a drunk/drugged up 200# bad guy wearing a leather jacket when fired down a long hallway in your house.

Like I wrote earlier, my preferred flavor is 3" 000 backed up by 1 1/4 oz slugs.

I went to the Remington website and found:

quote:

Overview:
Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.

I stand corrected, these aren't even lead turkey loads. They're waterfowl loads and safer to use in your house because they're lead free and environmentally safe.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
With the exception of contact or near contact wounds, I cannot remember seeing anyone killed with a shotgun and bird shot.

I would not want to bet MY life on it on, not on purpose anyway.

Well, I was out in one of my duckblinds last fall when we saw a lifeflight helicopter go streaking to the north. I'd never seen that before, and a couple hours later a game warden friend of mine stopped by our club to visit. While there, he told me that a hunter at one of the nearby refuges had fallen and accidentally shot his brother at about 15 feet. He told me the guy was dead before any help could get to him. And that was with lowly steel shot.

DLS

I have seen people killed with one shot from a 22 Short or a 25 ACP as well, but I would not want to depend on them...

Also, we do not know where the duck hunter was hit, or how long he might have been able to return fire.

In the infamous Maimi FBI shootout, Platt early on took a 9mm hit to the heart. IF he had been shot in the best emergency trama room in the US he still would have died, yet he was still able to continue the fight, and killed and wounded FBI agents after his heart was hit...

Again I will state, I would NEVER, on purpose, depend on anything less than No4 Buck for self defense.

20ga No 2 or No3 will work up close as well.

Back in the day, I did a LOT of testing of Buck shot.

Back then Single O was the best choice everything considered.

We found that at a distance OO was unpredictible, and would "throw" 2 different patterns at distance, up close it was ok.

The way the buckshot was stacked in the shell was the cause of this.

At a distance No4 and No1 was lacking in penetration.

For the current Homeowner one of the low recoil OO Buck shots loads, Remington Low Recoil, or Federal Tactical is the best choice IMHO.

As I was researching turkey accidental shooting what I found was that the victims bled out over hours due to their remote location. Most were actually able to walk to near by road with assistance from hunting partners.

450, as always you are right on.

Perry

quote:

00 buck is 0.38" about 8 pellets in a load.

#1 Buck is 0.36" about 15 pellets.

000 is .36
00 is .32, 9 fit perfectly in 2 3/4" shell, 12 fit perfectly in a 3" shell.
0 is .30

A 3" shot shell will hold 24 pellets of #1.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:


000 is .36
00 is .32, 9 fit perfectly in 2 3/4" shell, 12 fit perfectly in a 3" shell.
0 is .30

A 3" shot shell will hold 24 pellets of #1.

00 Buck is .33", 0 is .32", #1 is .30".

quote:

00 Buck is .33", 0 is .32", #1 is .30".

Thank-you. My caliper says you are correct!

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:
Thanks, but a Dove is shot a 30-40 yards, and an intruder will be shot at 3 to 10 feet...

Would it make much differance then?

Yes it will make a huge difference at 3 to 10 feet the shot is in the wad and it will blow a 12 gauge size hole through you. Anyone doughting this needs to get out more

Shoot a watermelon from 15' w/ #6 birdshot, upland game load. Then get back to me.

quote:

JD
While bird shot may go through plywood it will not go through 2 pieces of plywood. And if you put a watermelon behind a piece of plywood you will get almost no penetration into the watermelon. FACTS are FACTS, bird shot IS NOT lethal to humans at any range!!! If life depnds on it us buckshot it is a proven KILLER. Hitting someone with bird shot will probably DETER them but it will not kill them.

Horse hockey. A load of #4 at 10 feet will easily penetrate 2 pieces of plywood and kill anything aggressive behind it, assuming a vital area hit, not counting elephants or the stray rhino.

I have a friend who was being robbed in his pawn shop, shot two of the three perps with a 12 ga 00 buck, one in the face and one in the chest at a range of less than 15 feet max. Both survived, although the robbery part was over, and he took a 9mm round in the throat. Luckily it missed the carotid and spine and he is fine today. So 00 is not the be all and end all either. Anyone want a face full of an ounce and half of 4s at 10 feet of so and then they can take their best shot?

Another friend of mine, cop in E St. Louis shot a perp 5 times as he as going down after the first hit in the groin with a (I think) 9mm and then his partner who was in the patrol car rolled the perp at least twice with 00. Perp survived but was paralyzed from waist down. Hard to have any sympathy.

Did ya'll read the findings in the links I posted. This isn't rocket science. A plastic wad does not hold shot together after it strikes hard media. Individual shot does not penetrate deep enough to make it to the vitals in all cases. THEREFORE it is not recommended that one uses birdshot over buck for home defense. Could it kill someone, yes, but so will a 22 short so why not use that.

Gatogordo
Are you insinuating that the bird shot would have penetrated better than the buck shot in the pawn shop? Did the perp take the full load in his face and it did not stop him????

Perry

I acctualy do my own testing and a 1 1/4 ounce of #6 field loads at 3 to 10 feet is terminal for sure if placed properly as all loads must be placed well

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I acctualy do my own testing and a 1 1/4 ounce of #6 field loads at 3 to 10 feet is terminal for sure if placed properly as all loads must be placed well

+ 1

I have seen a deer shot in the head at 15 feet with a 1oz load of 8 shot very messy and a very dead deer. Nope under 10 yards on light skin stuff would work well.

At home defense distances, I can't think that an ounce or better of any birdshot center mass would not take the bad out of a bad guy. Haven't tried it. So I say "think".

I have seen #2 lead leave gobs of exit wounds on medium to large vermin at well beyond home defense distances. I would not want to stand anywhere near the business end of a load of #2's.

That being said, I have 00 buck in my home defense shotgun and slugs lined up on the stock.