Left and right engine fuel pumps cut off 3 seconds after takeoff. Sounds fishy to me.


India finds engine switch movement in fatal Air India crash

22:05 , Jabed Ahmed

"A preliminary report into the Air India crash that killed 260 people last month showed that three seconds after taking off, the plane's engines' fuel cutoff switches almost simultaneously flipped from run to cutoff, starving the engines of fuel.

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner immediately began to lose thrust and sink down, according to the report released by Indian aviation accident investigators.

One pilot can be heard on the cockpit voice recorder asking the other why he cut off the fuel. "The other pilot responded that he did not do so," the report said.

It did not identify which remarks were made by the flight's captain and which by the first officer, nor which pilot transmitted "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" just before the crash."

Cockpit pic showing fuel controls below thrust levers (round black knobs): https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BNFD...-controls-BNFDE5.jpg

Another report: https://inews.co.uk/news/world...ht-went-down-3802543

And apparently there was a 10 second delay then the switches were turned back on. But too late.

One second to switch both Left and Right cutoff switches to off seems too quick. A pause to work out wtf happened then Four seconds to switch one on then the other on seems more plausible.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
One second to switch both Left and Right cutoff switches to off seems too quick. A pause to work out wtf happened then Four seconds to switch one on then the other on seems more plausible.

I think the implication is that it was a quick, deliberate act. They are saying it without saying it.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
One second to switch both Left and Right cutoff switches to off seems too quick. A pause to work out wtf happened then Four seconds to switch one on then the other on seems more plausible.

I think the implication is that it was a quick, deliberate act. They are saying it without saying it.

Not yet they’re not. Lots of open space in the report. They haven’t released all the pilots talk nor the cockpit microphone, which should catch the switches being switched off, then on, perhaps the latter obscured by a ton of alarms and warnings!

I watched a video from a senior pilot with experience on the Boeing 787 providing analysis of the findings re the fuel switches and aside from the issue with the switches he made a point that others have not picked up on and that is that an aviation psychologist has been brought onto the investigation team. He suggests this move is an indication that there is a suspected mental health issue with one of the pilots.

I suspected as much. What you may see, if this is true, will be AI interfaces that will prevent such things unless there is agreement with the command input for fuel cutoff. IE. unless the aircraft is on the ground or there is an engine fire the command would be denied.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I watched a video from a senior pilot with experience on the Boeing 787 providing analysis of the findings re the fuel switches and aside from the issue with the switches he made a point that others have not picked up on and that is that an aviation psychologist has been brought onto the investigation team. He suggests this move is an indication that there is a suspected mental health issue with one of the pilots.

Man... just hearing it was the co-pilot who asked the pilot if he turned the fuel off...insanity. that pilot had 15K hours.

The amazing thing to me that he didn't turn the fuel flow back on before even questioning the other pilot.

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
The amazing thing to me that he didn't turn the fuel flow back on before even questioning the other pilot.

Probably not enough time to get over the shock and surprise of the captain doing that. Maybe if they had more altitude the copilot would have had more time to react.

I'm not sure those xtra seconds would have made much difference in this case. There just wasn't enough altitude to re-start. The Co-pilot likely had his hand on the throttles and had to see the pilot reach under them to cut the fuel. Since the fuel cutoffs were nearly simultaneous, I'm figuring the captain grabbed both levers at the same time. Maybe he had to struggle with the pilot to re-set them.

quote:

Originally posted by clowdis:

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
The amazing thing to me that he didn't turn the fuel flow back on before even questioning the other pilot.

Probably not enough time to get over the shock and surprise of the captain doing that. Maybe if they had more altitude the copilot would have had more time to react.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
I'm not sure those xtra seconds would have made much difference in this case. There just wasn't enough altitude to re-start. The Co-pilot likely had his hand on the throttles and had to see the pilot reach under them to cut the fuel. Since the fuel cutoffs were nearly simultaneous, I'm figuring the captain grabbed both levers at the same time. Maybe he had to struggle with the pilot to re-set them.

quote:

Originally posted by clowdis:

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
The amazing thing to me that he didn't turn the fuel flow back on before even questioning the other pilot.

Probably not enough time to get over the shock and surprise of the captain doing that. Maybe if they had more altitude the copilot would have had more time to react.

HD cameras in the cockpit seem reasonable when you have several hundred lives in your hands. It would certainly clear up issues like this.

Who has the throttles during takeoff, pilot or co-pilot?

You know, that is a good question. Now that you prompted me to think more about that, I recall seeing cockpit video of at least three scenarios. I have seen the flight engineer (if present) do it as well as the acting first officer or the pilot in command. I guess it may depend on aircraft type and airline policy. So, I guess at this point, we really don't know. Yes, cockpit video is a must!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

HD cameras in the cockpit seem reasonable when you have several hundred lives in your hands. It would certainly clear up issues like this.

So we add a half a million in video camera cost to every new airplane for a one off event. An event that may have been nefarious, or simply just fatigue related?

On my second point, pilots are know to make lots of odd mistakes when totally fatigued from tough schedules. Don't dismiss it as ridiculous, let's let the whole investigation play out.

quote:

Originally posted by clowdis:
Who has the throttles during takeoff, pilot or co-pilot?

After V1 (take off decision speed) neither pilot will have their hands on the power levers. That has been best practices for at least 50 years.

Upon V1 being called, both hands are placed on the control yoke/side stick.

quote:

Originally posted by f224:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

HD cameras in the cockpit seem reasonable when you have several hundred lives in your hands. It would certainly clear up issues like this.

So we add a half a million in video camera cost to every new airplane for a one off event. An event that may have been nefarious, or simply just fatigue related?

On my second point, pilots are know to make lots of odd mistakes when totally fatigued from tough schedules. Don't dismiss it as ridiculous, let's let the whole investigation play out.

Given the number of incidents on planes these days cameras seem like a good idea. So yeah, roll them in.

787 GE engines apparently live-time telemetry direct to GE during operation, so the notion of adding a few micro-cameras elsewhere on the planes to mitigate rumors for events like this (there are obviously others that occur that do not result in crashes) to assist seems pretty straightforward to me. From a report I heard it was the pilots union that pushed back on cameras, not manufacturers.