by Europe i also mean Britain and Scandinavia.
so i would guess the heaviest animals should be moose, bear and boar.

where would you draw the line between good enough under almost all circumstances and just too much?
(some of you won't agree on the "too much" term, but more powerful rifles will be heavier and not so pleasant too carry around all day).

i'm really looking for the European answer to Africa's .450-.470 group

My personal max would be the 300 Win. Mag.

For Europe / Scandinavia I'd be thinking 9.3x62 is a sensible upper end. For the UK I can't see much point using anything more than a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

Remember also there are oddball restrictions in some places like canton Graubunden, Switzerland, where the 10.3x60R is a minimum. The 416 cal. has some small following there.

I'd use my 30-06 anywhere it's legal and be very happy.

cheers,
- stu

375 H+H everywhere for everything even here in the UK far more versatile than the 300 win mag

Mark

Probably the 90% answer for 90% of Europe is the great 30-06. If you're looking for something with more beef I'd go 9.3x62.

I'd probably draw the line with "too much" on anything over 375H&H, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Depending on where / what / how you hunt, I would guess the venerable 9.3x62 is the most practical upper threshold cartridge.


Including European Russia with the EU Sacndinavian countries, and, If bears, moose/elk hunting were considered as well, then I would add .338 Win Mag, .358 Norma Magnum, 9.3x64 Brenneke, .375 H&H Magnum and the 10.75x68.

At close range, the 10.75x68 would deal a heavy blow to boar, bear and moose. You could use it for Bison / Wisnet, if they ever became huntable besides population density control within national parks.

I have a .338-06, which I use for Red Deer. It is more or less equal to the 8x64S Brenneke. Like the 9.3x62, and the .318 Westley Richards, it has ballistic performance beyond the paper numbers and does not kick you into last week.

However, if I were hunting boar etc, I would like something along the lines of a 9.3x62, 9.3x64 or .376 Steyr. I have read the first and last cartridges offer significantly less recoil than the .375H&H.

The .376 Steyr in a 9lb rifle with 24 inch barrel has less recoil than a .338 Win Mag but fires a heavier, larger diameter bullet. I think this would make it give it more effective terminal ballistics and be easier to shoot.

i'm leaning towards a reliable semi-automatic in 9.3x62.
plus you can buy shells for the 9.3 vitually everywhere

"Good enough" would certainly be .30-06 especially if heavier bullets were used for the bigger or dangerous game you mentioned.
Anything below would be a tad light - and I say this knowing that 6,5x55 is the most popular elk calibre in Sweden.

More than 9,3x62 will never be needed, but I have a hard time seeing it as being too much for anything.

Of course, then, anything inbetween would be perfectly good, which explains the popularity of the 8mm's.

In continental Europe probably 9.3 x 74R. In the UK then pretty much .30-06 is more than adequate.

As an old bloke, one of my criteria would be weight.
Event though the 375H&H shines ( I have used the caliber for the last 20 + years), the rifles tend to be on the heavy side.

My "go to" big game rifles today that would fit in are the 35 Whelen and the 338 Winmag.

Truck loads of good bullets for both, and they deliver the oommph in the reciveing end that will handle all the game mentioned.

The various 9,3´s and the 30-06 with good bullets are of course good canidates as well.

Should I pick just one ( heaven forbid), I would stick with the 338 Winmag.

With 9,3x62 you are prepared for everything. But there is a strong 8x68S (and 8x68 for varmint hunting) group.

Burkhard

With a .375 H&H you have one less thing to worry about. Plenty power and nice trajectory.

I have no experience with it, but the 9,3*62 should be very good also.

The already mentioned 9.3 mm (including the wonderfull 9.3x74 R) are very universal, even smallish game as re deer is killed very well with less meat wasted than with the faster 7 mm or .30 dia. bullets.

For everything but Scandinavian brown-bear, 30-06, for the bear, .338WM or .375HH. Many seasoned wild boar hunters here sees 30-06 as too weak and prefer some more punch.

Agree that 375 HH is a very good cartridge for all purposes. I have used mine from beaver, roe deer up to moose, never any problems because of the wide variety of bullets ranging from 200 grains to 380 grains. By the way my rifle weighs 3,2 kilograms without scope, but Pachmayer Decelerator tames it very well. Have owned a 375 since about 1980, two Sakos and now a Remington.

8x68S.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
...
where would you draw the line between good enough under almost all circumstances and just too much?...

Between 9,3x62 and 9,3x64.

The realy maximum caliber that you need in Europe is the good old 30'06 loadet with the right bullet, or 300 Magnum, but you must to shot good!!!
An famous african hunter (Bell) from past century shots many elefants with her 6,5 x 54 Mannlicher-Schonauer...
Hemingway shots everythink with 30'06...
This guys shot realy good!!!!
I'll not say we must hunt with Rem 223 Elk or Moose, but wenn I see that for someone the right caliber for European hunting is over 9mm, I wonder... I never see Elefants or Rhinos in Europe.
Personaly I hunt with 6,5 x 55, 30'06 and yesterday I buy a 300 Win Mag.
This is all you need for European big game.
But in some states there is some strange laws...
Faina

450/400 3" at least, and if the roe deer gets wild, then the 20/577 alex henry.

the best big bore in europa is the one that you can handle and hit the target with.

peter

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
by Europe i also mean Britain and Scandinavia.
so i would guess the heaviest animals should be moose, bear and boar.

where would you draw the line between good enough under almost all circumstances and just too much?
(some of you won't agree on the "too much" term, but more powerful rifles will be heavier and not so pleasant too carry around all day).

i'm really looking for the European answer to Africa's .450-.470 group

When I hunted in Alaska I was told the .300s were to Alaska as the .30-06 is to the lower 48 states.

I was looked at askance when I took a .30-06 to Scotland to stalk red stag. They said the locals preferred the .243 Win.

Of course, there is nothing in northern Europe, Russia, Asia, Alaska or Canada that would require a .470.

That said, the .300 Win Mag will hunt the world, including brown bears anywhere, save the legal requirements on the Big Five of Africa. It's my choice after years of experience. I have a custom rifle with a synthetic stock in .300 Win Mag that tips the scales at 9.2 pounds loaded.

In other words, I think the .300 Win Mag will take any game in the world that is legal for it to do so with 165, 180 or 200gr bullets.

Elgin Gates and others of his era used the .300 Weatherby Magnum to hunt the world, but it's a barrel burner and only gives you 25 extra yards at most.

Miller & Greiss 9,3x63

quote:

Elgin Gates and others of his era used the .300 Weatherby Magnum to hunt the world, but it's a barrel burner and only gives you 25 extra yards at most.

ooh...i didn't know.

if you shoot it properly(3shots, let it cool) the barrels lasts a lifetime if you use it as a hunting-rifle only, weatherby-cartridges was never intended for competition shooting.

and besides, i've already got one.

A 375H&H is s far better all round calibre than a 300. You can take anything under the African sky with a 375, and it is also good for Europe for Bear and Moose. I have taken Elephant and Buff with it loaded with 300 grain federal solids. Kudu using 235grain nosler and Moose in Finland.

You can up load and down load a great deal, and my BRNO with a Burris signature scope on it has never let me down in the 20 years I have had it. In my honest opinion it is one of the greatest calibres ever invented.

quote:

Originally posted by Sikamalc:... I am not a great one for haggling over calibres, all shoot the same up to 200yds, and its the person behind the rifle that makes the shot.

Didn't you post this just a minute ago?

Seriously, I'll give no argument to your statement.

.375 H&H Mag = one cartridge, one world!

(I just don't hunt DG. Can't afford it!)

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:... if you shoot it properly(3shots, let it cool) the barrels lasts a lifetime if you use it as a hunting-rifle only, weatherby-cartridges was never intended for competition shooting.

and besides, i've already got one.

If you say so. Truth is I hate Weatherbys because they feed unreliably. I had a .270 Weatherby Ultra Light Weight fail on me in Namibia and got a custom rifle built in .300 Win Mag afterwards. No more searching for oddball ammo. I've never looked back.

Norma is going to produce the 8x68S now, .

Now you can get good brass at volume and not as it has been up here recently, it has dried out, A Sauer 202 Magnum reciever wil lbe bought to the spring that wil ldefinetly have a 8mm 68 barrel now.

quote:

I'm leaning towards a reliable semi-automatic in 9.3x62

Don't come to Britain with it! Self-loading and pump action rifles, OF ANY TYPE IN ANY CALIBRE OTHER THAN .22 RIMFIRE, are prohibited weapons in UK. Thanks to Mrs. Thatcher's 1988 Firearms Act.

Not just "military" self-loading rifles like the Garand, FN-SLR, but also things like the Ruger Carbine, the Browning, Etc., etc.

oh, i didn't knew that.

i thought my state was semiauto haters, just allowing: BAR, remington, ruger mini 14&30, HK 2000, molot vepr, benelli argo, sauer 303 and some types not in production anymore.

i really feel sorry for our british hunting brothers

quote:

Originally posted by Arild Iversen:

Should I pick just one ( heaven forbid), I would stick with the 338 Winmag.

Agreed

Hopefully my .333 jeffery will be my "onegun" for the european continent. Right now my 8x57 Mauser has done very well...but lacks the versatility of the triblethree for bigger game.
I have a 300 H&H mauser which could very well be the best "allroundgun" with woodleighs new 240grains bullets, but next year the huntingseason will open with a jefferymauser regardless of what.
If one settles only to shoot roebucks, a 243win/6.5x55 will fill the bill nicely.

Hello enfieldspares,
I would guess the AR15's we have here in the states in very large number would be out of the quetion?? Dumb qustion. I note that at our Camp Perry National Matches the Canadian brothers of you are not shooting the dreaded "black rifle," but are the lever guns permited as in the Winchesters, Brownings, Marlins, etc.??

i'm not familiar with british regulations, but a lever action is a manually repeated rifle just as a bolt action.

over here and most other european countries i think, the AR-15 and it's clones are only allowed for practical shooting.