I'm aware that most bayonets for the last 150 years have been in the shape of knives with both edges sharpened. A few have been knives with one edge sharpened, one edge shaped as a saw. And a very few have been sharply pointed rods. Let's pretend oddities such as a bolo bayonet did not get past the hangover of the person who would have the power to authorize such a thing.
I have been informed that for a predominantly sticking blade the strongest shape, most resistant to breakage, is triangular with all edges sharpened. And three sharpened edges furnishes the greatest opportunity for a bayonet - that would actually be used as a bayonet in battle - to cut as well as puncture. Has any bayonet in the last 150 years had a triangular blade shape with all edges sharpened? If this has not been a country's issue bayonet shape during this relatively current time period, has such a bayonet - excluding plug bayonets - been any army's issue? If it has, please identify what countries and when?
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
05 June 2018, 18:26
Grizzly Adams
Russian Moisin bayonet seems to meet these criteria. Small cross section would seem to make it easier to penetrate heavy clothing as well.
Grizz
Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man
Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln
Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
06 June 2018, 02:54
enfieldspares
The original design of the No4 bayonet was cruciform. Although the edges weren't sharpened.
Apparently the target areas for a bayonet are the throat and the left and right groins (to attack the femoral arteries).
The British "Brown Bess" bayinet was triangular too, with sharpened edges.
06 June 2018, 06:29
mete
Three or four sided goes back along time but I wonder about sharpening the edges. Was that as made or added later ?? With the early long barrels + bayonet it made a fine pike. Our Civil War sword/bayonets did just that .
06 June 2018, 08:56
NormanConquest
Because the design was so effective in bayonets,they are outlawed, kinda, in knives r/e the Fairbairn design.That being said,our M1 bayonet w/ blood groove was more (humane?) than a spike.
Originally posted by Jerry Fisk: The triangle punch does not heal over well.
Narrow deep puncture wounds never do well, without antibiotics, the supply of which was very limited prior to WW ll. Penicillin was actually kept secret at one time.
Grizz
Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man
Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln
Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
08 June 2018, 20:11
Naphtali
Something that continues to puzzle me in retrospect since the era of using bayonets as a fighting/intimidation instrument mounted on a long gun (I use the phrase to account for guns such as Lancaster smgs in World War II, Winchester 1897 trench guns, et al.) and projecting forward of its muzzle is essentially over.
One factoid (??) I have read more than once that pertains to bayonet or sword/cutlass use as a stabbing tool is the difficulty in pulling blade from stab wound. I believe that some bayonet training included stepping on the fallen body to enhance the stabber's ability to get his gun-bayonet out of the stabbed body. The intended point of impact with most bayonet thrusts would be the thoracic cavity. Thoracic cavity has a rib cage to protect the cavity's organs. Every example I have seen of how a blade bayonet is mounted shows blade perpendicular to ribs. Mounted "sideways," the blade could "slide" between ribs - easier going in, much easier coming out. Pointed rods and triangular configurations avoid the issue. While I think that would allow them to have shorter blades, shortening the effective length of an infantryman's "pike" was probably not desirable.
And yet that small change appears to have been omitted. Since rod and triangular bayonets are pretty much useless except their use as the long gun's "pike," a design change that would cause a blade bayonet to be less useful as a knife is not a reasonable justification not to make the change.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
09 June 2018, 08:11
NormanConquest
Thus the blood grooves.Also learning to give it a slight twist to allow air to enter enough to release.
Never mistake motion for action.
09 June 2018, 10:07
Edmond
quote:
Originally posted by Naphtali: Something that continues to puzzle me in retrospect since the era of using bayonets as a fighting/intimidation instrument mounted on a long gun (I use the phrase to account for guns such as Lancaster smgs in World War II, Winchester 1897 trench guns, et al.) and projecting forward of its muzzle is essentially over.
One factoid (??) I have read more than once that pertains to bayonet or sword/cutlass use as a stabbing tool is the difficulty in pulling blade from stab wound. I believe that some bayonet training included stepping on the fallen body to enhance the stabber's ability to get his gun-bayonet out of the stabbed body. The intended point of impact with most bayonet thrusts would be the thoracic cavity. Thoracic cavity has a rib cage to protect the cavity's organs. Every example I have seen of how a blade bayonet is mounted shows blade perpendicular to ribs. Mounted "sideways," the blade could "slide" between ribs - easier going in, much easier coming out. Pointed rods and triangular configurations avoid the issue. While I think that would allow them to have shorter blades, shortening the effective length of an infantryman's "pike" was probably not desirable.
And yet that small change appears to have been omitted. Since rod and triangular bayonets are pretty much useless except their use as the long gun's "pike," a design change that would cause a blade bayonet to be less useful as a knife is not a reasonable justification not to make the change.
Narrow section cruciform bayonets were used by the French on Lebel 1886 rifle, the famous "Rosalie" bayonet, on the MAS 1936 (so effective the German FG42 used it)
Horizontal bayonets are used on FAL and SIG 540,542,543
16 June 2018, 20:11
Gatogordo
quote:
Originally posted by Naphtali: Something that continues to puzzle me in retrospect since the era of using bayonets as a fighting/intimidation instrument mounted on a long gun (I use the phrase to account for guns such as Lancaster smgs in World War II, Winchester 1897 trench guns, et al.) and projecting forward of its muzzle is essentially over.
One factoid (??) I have read more than once that pertains to bayonet or sword/cutlass use as a stabbing tool is the difficulty in pulling blade from stab wound. I believe that some bayonet training included stepping on the fallen body to enhance the stabber's ability to get his gun-bayonet out of the stabbed body. The intended point of impact with most bayonet thrusts would be the thoracic cavity. Thoracic cavity has a rib cage to protect the cavity's organs. Every example I have seen of how a blade bayonet is mounted shows blade perpendicular to ribs. Mounted "sideways," the blade could "slide" between ribs - easier going in, much easier coming out. Pointed rods and triangular configurations avoid the issue. While I think that would allow them to have shorter blades, shortening the effective length of an infantryman's "pike" was probably not desirable.
And yet that small change appears to have been omitted. Since rod and triangular bayonets are pretty much useless except their use as the long gun's "pike," a design change that would cause a blade bayonet to be less useful as a knife is not a reasonable justification not to make the change.
A common training technique for bayonet use was to fire a round to "shoot" the blade loose. I can not tell you where I heard this, but it was from a real bayonet user.
As far as horizontal vs perpendicular to ribs, one has to keep in mind that the blade was used with an approx. 10 pound gun backed up by a scared user. A rib would offer little to no real resistance to such a thrust.
A good friend of mine, not deceased, was assigned to fight with Turkish troops in Korean war. He said they loved it when the Chinese charged, so they could use their knives, not bayonets.
Contrary to what was stated above, the general point (pun intended) of bayonet attacks was, just like with a pistol, center mass, backed by full wt. of user.
The real moral to this discussion of bayonet usage is that if a soldier elects to carry extra wt in his kit, it should be mostly in form of extra ammo and water.
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16 June 2018, 20:48
Gatogordo
Note: There are reports of small unit (Marines) fixing bayonets and charging in Iraq, but this is the usual story....
quote:
COL. LEWIS MILLETT THE STORY OF LEWIS MILLETT The U.S. Army's Last Bayonet Charge
DAVID FRUM 10.23.12 5:30 PM ET Today's post-debate interest in bayonets offers a fragment of an excuse to reproduce this delightful Peter Worthington column from the old Frum Forum.
I first spotted him at a banquet and awards ceremony in Seoul, marking the 50th anniversary of the Korean war – a grizzled old colonel with a white handlebar moustache and the Medal of Honor around his neck.
But what caught my attention was two Canadian war medals nestled among the 26 medal ribbons he wore – the Canadian Volunteer medal with overseas clasp, and Victory medal from WWII.
“How come?” I asked him.
A mischievous grin spread his face. He introduced himself – Col. Lewis Lee Millett, a storied American fighting soldier, although I didn’t know it at the time.
“I got the Medal of Honor thanks to the Canadian army,” he quipped. “The Canadians taught me bayonet fighting, and I led a bayonet charge in the Korean war.” He paused, waiting for inevitable questions.
I was with my friend, Vince Courtenay, both of us Korean vets from the same battalion of the Princess Pats in Korea.
Millett, then around 80 years old, told how he’d joined the U.S. army at age 21 in the summer of 1941 – and then deserted, because the U.S. wasn’t yet in the war. He came to Canada and joined our army to go overseas. He wanted to fight Nazis. “As I recall, the Canadian infantry was always doing bayonet training – stabbing straw-filled dummies, parry, thrust, shouting. It made an impression on me.”
After Pearl Harbour, when the U.S. entered the war, he transferred back to the U.S. army, served in North Africa and Italy, winning the Silver Star. When paperwork caught up with him that he had deserted in 1941, his commanding officer court-martialed him – fined him $50, and promptly promoted him to 2nd lieutenant.
“I believe I am the only colonel in the regular army who was ever court-martialed and convicted of desertion,” he laughed. In Korea, he also won the Distinguished Service Cross, next to the Medal of Honor in prestige, but he seemed inordinately proud of his two Canadian medals.
In the ferocious fighting of early 1951, Millett recalled reading a document that said the Chinese believed American soldiers dreaded hand-to-hand combat, and were fearful of “cold steel."
“We’ll see about that, you sons of bitches,” he muttered. At a feature called Hill 180, under grenade and rifle fire, he led two platoons in a bayonet charge up the hill.
“I always had my men fix bayonets,” he said. “I never forgot the Canadian training. We didn’t do much bayonet drill in those days, but I gotta say, those Chinese didn’t know what hit them when we charged.”
Millett led the way and routed the Chinese. His Medal of Honor citation reads: “His dauntless leadership and personal courage so inspired his men that they stormed into the hostile position and used their bayonets with such lethal effect that the enemy fled in wild disorder.”
In the Vietnam war, Millett was involved in a clandestine intelligence program aimed at subverting and killing Viet Cong in the countryside. He retired in 1973 when he felt the U.S. was abandoning South Vietnam.
He once told an interviewer: “I believe deeply in freedom. I’ve fought in three wars, and volunteered for all of them . . . I believe as a free man it is your duty to help those under the attack of tyranny. It’s as simple as that.”
Lewis Millett, old soldier, died on Nov. 14, age 89: A free man, a brave man, an American patriot.
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.
NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.
I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
17 June 2018, 20:12
Naphtali
Edmond:
Please refrain from participating in any thread I have originated.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
17 June 2018, 20:57
Edmond
Please fuck yourself off.
17 June 2018, 23:02
enfieldspares
I knew, once, a man that used a sword in combat. In what was the actual true last cavalry charges of the British Army. The "Charge of Huj" in 1917.
Everybody thinks it's Omdurman, Churchill, all that. Not so. British cavalry charged during the early part of WWII in cavalry v cavalry engagements.
And in Palestine...where my friend charged at Huj...in a cavalry v infantry engagement. Against the Turks. And, yes, he killed two or so with his sword.
Even in his early nineties when I knew him he remembered the order. "Remove gloves, draw swords, all four reins the left hand..."
18 June 2018, 04:08
Palidun
Bayonets will be useful in handling all the leftist dupes we will have to unbrainwash.
18 June 2018, 08:13
NormanConquest
enfieldspares,if you have not yet seen it,find the movie "The Lighthorsemen".That is the action you describe I believe. Gato,great story,thanks for sharing.
Never mistake motion for action.
19 June 2018, 02:58
enfieldspares
NC these were proper cavalry, equipped with swords. The Australian Light Horse were mounted infantry. So they had not swords but the seventeen inch long Enfield bayonet.
My friend said that the Turks broke and the ones he killed were taken through the back with such force that the sword come through the front.
He then said that many Turks then threw themselves on the ground and attempted to hamstring the British horses whose riders had no response as, not being lancers, they couldn't reach down far enough!
British cavalry in WWI were trained, as were the Light Horse to fight also as infantry. So were each man carried a revolver for mounted combat, a rifle, as well as the sword. British lancers carried ALL that and a lance.
Here in September 1914 is Europe's last lance v lance engagement. The 9th Lancers in action. It hangs in their Officers' Mess. You can see some wiser fellows using revolvers!
Here, below, the month previous, August 1914 are the 12th Lancers attacking German infantry at Moy. Many 12th Lancers officers were notable for carrying privately purchased .455 Webley automatic pistols. The German on the ground is easy pickings with the lance that he would have been unreachable with a sword.
23 June 2018, 13:02
Edmond
23 June 2018, 20:15
Gatogordo
Bon clip Edmond, merci!
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.
NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.
I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
05 September 2018, 20:40
Pa.Frank
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bayonets a carry-over of the old time Pikeman? Logical to put a blade on the end of a long single shot musket, (like a Brown-bess) once you have fired your shot, now you have a pike.
I don't think we have seen any bayonet charges since maybe WWI, if even then.
NRA Benefactor.
Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne
06 September 2018, 04:03
Grizzly Adams
quote:
Originally posted by Edmond: [FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PAPox1A3F6U" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]
Tough to see any enthusiasm for combat Here. My God, do we really HAVE to do this.
Grizz
Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man
Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln
Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
07 September 2018, 02:31
TCLouis
Though there may have been fights where they were used, the short knife shaped bayonet on an M16 always seemed a bit too up close and personal.
I would have preferred if need be I have one of the long Mausers or the Japanese Type 99 rifle with their long skewer bayonets. In combat I think I would prefer 100-200 meters.
Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits
09 September 2018, 08:26
NormanConquest
You remember the WW1 bayonets,over 18" of blade. Let us not forget the bayonets for the Brits in the Peninsular campaign.The Riflemen called them swords + for actual purposes they were.The gent who has the more reach over the other generally wins unless you are well trained,but since most were conscripts,they were'nt.(in that context;the French).
Never mistake motion for action.
09 September 2018, 08:58
JJB
quote:
Originally posted by Edmond: Please fuck yourself off.
10 September 2018, 07:54
NormanConquest
Just because it does not fit your opinion does not make it any less true. The Brits for large part were a pressed army + ones who took the shilling to avoid the poverty that they lived in + a pint a day.Anything was better than where they were.The french forces were by + large conscripts.
