Re: Sporting exemption list?

30 March 2004, 13:23

Lar45

I emailed the ATF about this. The gave me a number for the technology branch. I called them and they didn't have a clue what I was talking about. They transfered me to the NFA branch and they didn't have a clue about a sporting exemption what??

The guy who registered the 550 Magnum. Did they give you a reference in the CFR covering the NFA or GCA?

TIA

30 March 2004, 13:36

475Guy

Lar, you need to PM either Robgunbuilder or Jeffeosso. Hubel458 also. They have all done the bigger than .500" bores. It seems there's no set rule as it is a case by case decision.

30 March 2004, 18:36

RNS

Quote:

The guy who registered the 550 Magnum. Did they give you a reference in the CFR covering the NFA or GCA?

I would be the Guy

GCA, 18 U.S.C. Section 921 (17) (A)

I will contact them and ask if my cartridge is on available list that is open to the general public for people who would want to build one in the future.

I will send you a PM

RNS "The Guy"

30 March 2004, 18:50

Grandpasez

In the classification letter they senr RNS for the 550
Magnum, they mention section 921(17(A) of the GCA, to give the definition of the term "ammunition", in second paragraph.

In third paragraph they state the cartridge is ammunition
as defined in section 921(a)(17) and that no federal firearms license is need.

So if any knows where to find these sections they may get
a clue on what gov has set up.Ed.

30 March 2004, 22:44

Grandpasez

Found a complete copy of GCA 68 at this site---

www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG3.html

This section I found refers to the use of whatever is called ammunition by Section 921(a)(17))A), that is quoted in RNS's approval letter, that he and I mention above.

Quote----From Section 921 (a)(4)------

4) The term "destructive device" means -

(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas -

(i) bomb,

(ii) grenade,

(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more

than four ounces,

(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary

charge of more than one-quarter ounce,

(v) mine, or

(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily

converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an

explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel

with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended

for use in converting any device into any destructive

device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from

which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

The term "destructive device" shall not include any

device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use

as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for

use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a

signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar

device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the

Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of

section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other

device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not

likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a

rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting,

recreational or cultural purposes."""

Unquote.

The last sentence tells it all about rifle sporting use.

In essence, ATF has to determine, first if it is

ammunition, second if 50cal and under or over 50 cal,third if over whether it is destructive or sporting, for our large bore cases.If destructive you must get license to own, pay tax, etc, if sporting anyone not prohibited

by other laws can buy, use, etc.Ed.

31 March 2004, 07:39

Lar45

Thanks Ed. What I was wondering is if there is a list of the cartriges that have already been aproved. You would think that there would be somewhere. It would be nice to have the list posted somewhere so potential bigger than 50 builders could make sure they were legal.

31 March 2004, 12:10

Grandpasez

Lar-Talking to Neal this AM and he is checking about a list,

but we both feel there probably isn't one.There certainly

isn't one in the copy of GCA 68 and its changes and additions put on over the years.

I figure if there is no list---IT IS TIME FOR A GROUP

LIKE AR TO GET AFTER CONGRESS TO HAVE ATF SET UP ONE.

I mean they have lists of prohibited guns, lists of guns

C&R guys can get under C&R licenses, and so on,

so why not a list of big bore cases from the past and

all new ones added.

As an example, with 550 Magnum classified as sporting,And the way I read GCA 68 it don't matter

whether you buy a 550 Mag case from Quality all formed,

buy one as a basic case from Quality or Bertram

needing forming, a 460 case needing expanding or you build it on your own lathe, it has sporting use classification,

and that is all it needs...So why not have it on a

stupid list, so we don't have to worry about dinks turning

us in when we talk about doing something; or some bureaucrat changing the rules and GCA interpretations,

when administration changes, because it is hidden and

we can't watch them and the list. Or being forced

to have every owner go through the bureaucratic stuff to build a big bore gun.Or put up with shops hesitant to build guns and actions for them.I plan on trying to get all

my stuff classified as sporting use, and it should be on a list. Something AR and others could get after Congress to

set up!!ED.

31 March 2004, 13:11

ScottS

Before the BATF became part of the Justice Department, they had a list of the grandfathered cartridges readily available. By the way, it is the Secretary of the Army, who decides if a particular cartridge over 0.5" diameter, is a destructive device or a sporting cartridge, IIRC.

31 March 2004, 13:58

Grandpasez

Where could we find this list on the web? Or in a gov
document.And also where could we find the particulars of
how the Sec Army does this. I can't find it in GCA copied
on above site.Ed.

31 March 2004, 16:24

Oldsarge

Hub,
Well, I figure that if they don't have list of permitted cartridges and they do have a list of forbidden ones, anything not forbidden is permitted. Good theology, good legal theory and, let's face it, it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

31 March 2004, 18:22

Grandpasez

Sarge--God and I have had that interaction also, and
I been in trouble all my life.Haha. The list of stuff I
mentioned they outlawed for regular owners are different guns, not the ammunition, like the Streetsweeper,
machine guns,etc. And if it is true they had a list of
over 50 cal sporting cartridges, then we through Congress
should be able to force it back out in the public view, as
I know of nothing in legislation of the last few years that
would have told ATF to discontinue a list of sporting ones.
And also have a simple tranparent means to get over 50 cal
cases added to it, whether by JD, H&H, or any of us here.Ed.

01 April 2004, 05:32

Grandpasez

Sarge-another thought also about lists. We really don't want
lists of prohibited cases and cartridges, as some military surplus stuff they would put on the list we may use to
make our wildcats.And a prohibited list of over 50 cal military stuff would be a hindrance to ammo collectors also.
No collector wants to pay a per piece tax, for something on
a list.

I was asked here why I mentioned that they first have to determine if whatever they are looking at fits the definition of ammunition, We all assume that what we big bore nuts work with is ammunition. But if they looked at a 68 cal paintgun, it is over 50 cal ,but doesn't meet other requirements in GCA 68, to be classed as ammunition, so they have no jurisdiction.Ed.

09 December 2011, 02:40

JTknives

To me, them not having a list seams kinda fishy. you send them a letter saying you are going to use it in a sporting gun and thy say ok. Is there anyone that has filed for a sporting use and gotten rejected. I would think that if it was something thy wanted/needed to control thy would keep a list. Because what proof do you have that thy said ok. your copy of the letter would need to be backed up by the government. and if thy cant back it up how can thy enforce it. This just screams "we don't have the power to enforce it but if people want to give us the power by asking for permission then we wont tell them thy don't need to".

09 December 2011, 03:51

Grandpasez

JT- I'm sure that others have already made
cases like yours, even identical, as cutting
of a bmg at shoulder to make 700, is going to
make a 700 that is same, even if done by ten guys.
The catch is they all gave the case there own name,
and those filed with ATF and got the Sporting exemption,
are filed by the name, not case dimensions.

So you go there and ask about a list with cartridge names and
specs so that you could maybe use one, and they will
tell you that they have no list, as they want to
protect the cartridge owners so-called proprietory info.
They won't even tell you if a certain case you have the name of
that you know is Sporting is listed or in the records.
unless you are the guy who registered it.
They tell you it is up to the person/company that
got the exemption to get info out to the public.
I checked 3-4 times and that is all I get.Crazy.
The only thing they give you info on, are your own.
It is just an excuse to make it harder for
big bore nuts to operate.Ed

09 December 2011, 04:39

JTknives

ah ok, so thy do keep track but wont let you know if your covered by some one elses design.

09 December 2011, 06:43

Grandpasez

Basically that seems to be it.Ed

12 December 2011, 05:48

416Tanzan

I'd like to see the 500 Accurate Reloading officially listed as having a sporting exemption, not to mention the 500NE, 577NE and 600 NE and 600 OK.

All it takes is an customs/airport offical with malice or a chip on their shoulder against hunters to cause quite a bit of trouble.

My son had a little trouble this year getting the personal effects form (4457) from a US Customs agent for two 416Rigby Rifles. The first agent wasn't going to sign any form unless my son (38 years old) could prove that they were his by documentation. Fortunately, the supervisor came into the office, quickly recognized the situation and told the agent that this is a routine affair that does not require any documentation, it only documents that the said person declared them as a personal possossion when leaving the USA for customs purposes.

12 December 2011, 07:18

Robgunbuilder

BATFE does not even publish the machine gun registry. You can check that a certain gun is in the registry but they won't publish it. Period. Good luck getting them to publish a list of sporting cartridge exemption. It just isn't the way they operate and we are not going to change it. Just register your Over .50 caliber cartridges and keep the official letter available.-Rob

12 December 2011, 07:47

Grandpasez

The 500s don't need exemption.
The 577NE, 600NE I been told are grandfathered in.
The OK Rob/AHR I'm sure got it exempt.

We had hurrah elsewhere about this and some were
down on rifled shotguns, that millions of deer guys are
using by state shotgun only rules. Now I finally figured
why the powers let it go; in addition to many millons of
influential hunters, and a bunch state game depts, political power,
is that they, the powers, let it be, found excuse, due to rifled shotgun
barrels are a hundred year old idea and in some use. So they
have excuse to let it be grandfathered in.....Interesting..

NOW- IF we have regime change next fall,and I still here, and I'm posting
12ga FH, etc on a 100 forums now, to get word out, I will set up page
on my site or see if Saeed will do it here for petition
to hand the right congress critter. To put into law as amendments to
Title 18 GCA, to have the ATF publish and keep current,
a list of exemptions, sporting cases, clarify some wording
in Title 18 GCA.

All,Mainly to make the exemption process open,
exemptions automatic without huge wait, Ie; a ATF guy looks at cartridge print,
reads the sporting uses hunting, target, collecting,etc, the guns designed
for and stamps it approved, sends letter , adds to a list on a public web page
and be done with it........
in a week...Ed