To shoot both barrels at the same from a double rifle

25 January 2002, 07:35

McCray

I'm not a double gun type of guy but I did have a lightweight 12 guage that would "double" every time, if you fired the left barrel first.

It was almost as fun as slamming your thumb in a car door!

Look at it this way, if you're shooting at a big and nasty animal, it might be very effective. On the other hand, laying on the ground, dazed, isn't the best place to get off a third or fourth shot from, if the first two didn't do the trick.

It might be entertaining to watch though!

25 January 2002, 09:41

<SaxonPig>

Done it with a shotgun. Try pulling the front trigger first.

25 January 2002, 10:24

ForrestB

Last summer in Africa, I heard a story of a PH whose new-manufacture double rifle discharged both barrels as the action was being closed. The cocking lever almost completely severed the PH's right thumb and definitely put him out of commission for an extended period. I won't say the brand name of the rifle because I don't know the exact circumstances. However, the three PH's present when the story was related knew the victim in question and agreed as to the veracity of the story.

25 January 2002, 10:30

Atkinson

I have experienced a 470 doubling at exactly the same instance and from a bench rest..I could tell both bores went off at the same time because the two shots were 6" apart on the 50 yd. target.

The gun reared up stright and turned over and came down on my head, the rear sight crunching my skull, I came off the seat and was slid back about 4 feet on the floor of my shop and it knocked me plumb out..I awoke pretty quick and blood was running all over my face and everywhere. I thought the gun had blown up but it had not..I was numb from head to toe and confused for a few minutes. My day was ruined...

the reason it doubled is because I decided I wanted a 2.5 lb. trigger on my double and it worked for about a week, then boooom x 2.....
Shortly thereafter had a nice set of crisp breaking 10 lb. triggers...

Not an experience I intend to repeat....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

25 January 2002, 10:57

Ray you may have got a berth on Saaeds .577 video's with that effort. I would rather do a round with Kosta Tzyu or Evander Holyfield.

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25 January 2002, 12:17

<Rusty>

A buddy of mine Tom Evans had a Jeffery 450/400 3 1/4 on approval so he and Mark Cash and I took it to the range. At the time I had never fired a double rifle, just ogled them from afar.

The rifle had an articulated front trigger. Idea being, you fire the left (back trigger) first.Without removing your finger, just slide it forward and the front trigger slides over the index finger and springs back into postion for firing. Simple!

Well godd old Tom and Mark standing aside and chuckling to themselves did tell me this.
The pull on the rifle was a bit long for me, so I'm stretching my finger to just grab the front trigger. I squeeze and BAM!BAM! The recoil pulled my finger back against the back trigger!

I look like I had been slapped away from the table for passing gas! LOL The rounds printed right/left 1/4" apart! My cheek had this nice red glow to it and Mark and Tom were on the ground! Great friends!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

25 January 2002, 13:14

MacD37

How would you liked to have had a picture of Rusty's face at the time?

Most doubleing is not really a doubleing, but a double fireing. What I mean by this is exactly what Rusty experienced. The barrels did not fire similtaneously, but one right behind the other during the recoil. This is the only draw back to the proper sequince of barrels being right, left, right left! The recoil of the first barrel fireing, kicks the trigger finger off the front trigger, and because you are naturally trying to control the recoil, without dropping the rifle, you finger tries to get back in contact with the rifle, and where does it grab, the back trigger.

A true doubleing is only the result of damage to the rifle, or sometimes the shooter trying to use the rifle with the fore finger on the front trigger, and the middle finger on the back trigger, and in the excitement of the battle pulling them both at once. What Ray had was damage to the locks, makeing them suseptable to recoil set-off! This was a true doubleing!

The two fingers on two triggers doubleing is recorded on the film "WITH DEADLY INTENT" where a hunter who had shot his Buffalo with his 375 H&H, borrowed Mr. bates' 500 NE Searcy double rifle to put the finish on the downed Buffalo. He wasn't used to double rifles, and put a finger on each trigger, and when he fired he pulled both triggers. It didn't hurt him, or the rifle in any lasting way, but did draw a big belly laugh from the hunting party!

I've had recoil induced quick fireings of both barrels, but not a true doubleing. I have experienced it on old shotguns, however! I'm going to have to agree with Jmac on this one! Though it might be effective, I don't think purposely fireing both barrels would be the best idea in the world, not only for the rifle, but especially for the shooter. But mostly because it isn't the proper way to do things, IMO!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

25 January 2002, 15:22

raamw

I don't own a double rifle but I have had a number of double 12's. I had several instances of double barrel disharges with a my first double which was a spanish made with double triggers. The funny thing about this is that it was a full and modified with just extractors, I had only been reloading for a short time and as it turned out when the stock finally became seated the modified barrel would discharge simutaneously when the full barrel was shot. I was normally pheasant hunting and in the two or three years that I owned this gun only a handful of shots came up in which I would opt for the full choke to be used first. In those instances I would always blame my lack of quality control on my powder charging to compensate for the heavy recoil. Since the gun only had extractors I would throw out the empty full barrel casing. On the few occassions that it doubled when I would latter find the empty casing in the modified barrel I would write it off as stupidity for throwing out the loaded case. On the particular day that I figured what was happening, for some reason I openned up the gun and inspected both primers, a short time latter the full barrel was used first, causing the modified to go with it, end of story. The second gun that did this to me was an over and under Antonio Zoli with two triggers, it was on a float trip duck hunt on a cold windy day and I had heavy gloves on which apparently the bunched up glove material exerted sufficient pressure on the second trigger causing it to go off with the firing of the intended barrel, this happened with (2) 1-7/8 oz, 3 inch magnum. It gave me the biggest swelling on my center finger from the trigger guard that you would believe. Moral of the story pick a single triggered double.

[This message has been edited by raamw (edited 01-25-2002).]

25 January 2002, 16:43

<FFg>

Here's a 4 bore doubling...

http://www.gunshop.com/videoclips/4bore_ouch_240x180x12fps.mov

No fun!

25 January 2002, 17:21

KMuleinAK

quote:
Originally posted by FFg:
Here's a 4 bore doubling...
http://www.gunshop.com/videoclips/4bore_ouch_240x180x12fps.mov
No fun!

I feel sorry for the "assistant", looked like he got smacked pretty good!!!!

26 January 2002, 00:30

Andre Mertens

Rusty, I'm not sure you're right about the purpose of an articulated first trigger. They're quite common on higher grade doubles on these shores and are meant to avoid battering the index on the secong shot from the rear trigger. They don't fold up all the way either. BTW, firing the left/over bbl. first would normally upset the sequence a double was regulated for and groups are bound to suffer.

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Andrï¿½

26 January 2002, 07:08

MacD37

raamw,
That was a fine story, and though you think you have found out what was happening, the fix isn't to use single trigger doubles!

What was causeing the doubleing of your shotgun, was the right lock was defective, and the recoil of the other barrel would let the sear slip over its notch. True doubleing has absolutely nothing to do with the triggers, other than placeing a finger on both of them at the same time. A single trigger double barrel can double as easily as a double trigger model. This is common with cheap Spanish shotguns,all cheap doubles for that matter. The metel in the locks is too soft, and roughly cut, and fitted, and though they shoot fine, they should be very carefully inspected inside before they are used. Most will require some work to make them safe, and the parts look as if they had been cut out with a hatchet.

Your useing the gun for four years with it's habit of doubleing, is tantamount to endangering everyone with in shot range of that shotgun. The sear was either cut at the wrong angle, or the spring was not strong enough to hold it in it's notch under recoil, or both. A gun that has this problem is not safe to handle while loaded, a drop, or sudden jar will set it off.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-25-2002).]

26 January 2002, 11:19

Atkinson

When one of those big double rifles doubles or near doubles it is just plumb comical regardless of who it happens to.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

26 January 2002, 13:25

raamw

The gun didn't start doubling till the second year, then it did it several times probably not much more than 4 or 5 until I figured it out, the gun was still under warranty and the manufacturer repair report stated it was a seating problem, I kept the gun for another year or so and it never happened again. I remember it was the first 3" shotgun that I had bought but I gebnerally used field loads that I reloaded myself. I don't recall the brand but I traded it in on a Browning side by side the first year the browning was made which I believe was 1971 or so.

26 January 2002, 14:20

Will

MacD37:

The solution to shooting the front trigger then accidentally shooting the rear is to shoot the rear trigger first. It's easier to reload the left barrel.

Will

P.S. This a repeat... No. 872 I believe.

26 January 2002, 15:04

ACRecurve

Intentionally doubling a 470 might be a good way to prepare for the really big bores?
Good Hunting,

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Andy Cooper

26 January 2002, 15:45

<500 Nitro>

I have been reading the posts on this sight for a while and decided to register. Hope this and other posts are some use.

I have a Westley Richards 500/465, Double Trigger, Extactor. I only owned it for 1 month before I decided to take it on a Buffalo hunt in Northern Australia so went through the usual pre hunt tests at the range, loaded and tested the ammo, made sure all rounds chambered etc etc,. All seemed well. A friend of mine then test fired the gun at the range and it "doubled" on him once out of 10 pairs of shots. As it hadn't done this to me, we thought the back trigger could have been touched on recoil but I took note of it.

On arriving in camp, I test fired the gun and no problem. All seemed well. However on firing at a trophy buffalo a few days later, the gun "doubled" immediately on recoil. The second barrel went off so quickly it sounded like one shot and the PH asked why I was reloading both barrels.

As to where the bullets went, the first bullet was exactly as aimed and took out the top of the heart, the second went over the buffalo's head.

The gun also "doubled" at another animal that I shot at as it was running directly at us. In this instance, the first bullet hit where aimed (low chest shot) and the second again went over it's head.

I had the gun checked on my return and the problem was caused by someone not experienced enough who had played with the locks/sears and it had now worn to a point where it caused the left barrel to sometimes fire on recoil.

Having this happen certainly makes you glad I practised reloading quickly.

500 Nitro

27 January 2002, 00:53

Will

500 Nitro:

Welcome on board. Beofre you get attached to your moniker, there are some other guys here with similar ones (a search might be appropriate).

You should call yourself 500/465, it's much more romantic!! Hell, if I had a WR 500/465 I would be bragging about it! When you tire of it, throw it my way.

Will

27 January 2002, 03:01

<Rusty>

Andre, of course you are correct! Thanks!

27 January 2002, 11:52

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
MacD37:
The solution to shooting the front trigger then accidentally shooting the rear is to shoot the rear trigger first. It's easier to reload the left barrel.
Will
P.S. This a repeat... No. 872 I believe.

Will, Will, are you trying to catch some one off guard, or what?

You know, as well as I do, that a right handed double rifle is regulated at the maker's shop to be fired in the rt,lft,rt, lft sequince. The right thin barrel heating up fast, places stress on the thin left barrel, which is solidly attatched to the right barrel, makeing it shoot properly for the second shot!

PS: This is repeat No. 873 I'm sure!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

27 January 2002, 12:04

MacD37

500 NITRO, I also would like to welcome you to the forum!
The second shot, on a recoil induced doubleing, will always be high, because they do not fire at the same time. In fact, compared to speeds of bullets , the second barrel fires quite a long time after the first. Unless both triggers are pulled symiltaineously, they will always hit at different elevations on the target, even at a couple yards, and more at any range farther away frm the muzzles.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-27-2002).]

27 January 2002, 14:38

Will

Mac, Mac, Mac.....I keep on trying to show you guys the light, but you are stuck knee deep in tradition!!

FOR THE HUNTING THAT I DO, I have adjusted the sights such that the left barrel shoots were I'm pointing (50 yards max.) and I don't much care about the right barrel, as it is only for followup and not necessary for precise shooting anyway. I wish I could wade into a dozen tuskers and actually have to worry about dropping them all, but in reality only the first shot is really of any significance. So I shoot the left barrel first for the reasons stated above.

Before I knew better... one time I doubled by pulling the front trigger first (which brained it) and then accidentally pulled the back trigger, the PH and trackers all went running up to the bull to find the two holes. I had to subdue my giggling, as the barrels were pointed towards the stars when that left barrel went off.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, it just works for me.

Will

(Repeat #874!)

28 January 2002, 01:35

p dog shooter

I seen a guy do it with a krieghoff 416 rem mag with double triggers. He thought you put a differant finger on each trigger. Funny to watch wouldn't recommend it. Had a 20 ga sxs that would double that wasn't to bad fix it anyway.

28 January 2002, 02:59

Nitro Express

The classic description of a rifle doubling can be found in Ruark's "Horn of the Hunter," when he held the two extra rounds in his right hand and tripped the second trigger.

28 January 2002, 05:01

<Daryl Elder>

I recently had a similar experience to Rusty's. I was shooting Vasa's .500/.416 double. I performed what is commonly known in combat pistol shooting as a "double tap". The recoil from the first shot caused my finger to come back against the second trigger and "pop-pop"! I think the second round is still orbiting the earth. It was sort of like one round from the .500 A-Square.

28 January 2002, 05:44

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Mac, Mac, Mac.....I keep on trying to show you guys the light, but you are stuck knee deep in tradition!!
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, it just works for me.
Will
(Repeat #874!)

Will, If it works for you, who am I to say how you should change?

The only thing is, I think your habit of fireing the left barrel first is a bad habit to get into, for someone who hunts mostly Buffalo with a double rifle. I have only fired two shots on an Elephant in my life, but now Buffalo, is another matter. The reason being, the second shot on a Buffalo at close range sometimes must be VERY precise. As you no doubt know, a buffalo will normally NOT turn once he starts, and a shot placed just any old place is in a word DANGEROUS!

I do have one double rifle that has part of your system built in. It is a Westley Richards Box lock, 500/450 ejector rifle. It has a G&H type QD scope base that is mounted to the Quarter rib, but places the scope centered over the bore of the left barrel. The left trigger is a "SET TRIGGER" and this allows the rifle to be used with the scope, AND the express sights without removeing the scope. The scope is adjusted for the left barrel only. It works too, for a long shot or for a very precise bullet placement. When both barrels are used in close qaurters, however, the rt, lft sequince is used!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

28 January 2002, 11:18

Atkinson

I shoot my doubles rt. lft. rt. lft. and all my bullets hit the same place and my 450-400 does not double on me...No double rifle or shotgun will double if everything is set up correctly.....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

28 January 2002, 14:20

Will

Mac:

Call me spastic or weird or whatever. After doubling by pulling the rear trigger by accident, I want none if it.

If that had been a charge, and the first barrel didn't knock it down, then you're in deep doo-doo.

An infinite amount of experience might change my mind, but since I am too poor to gain the experience I want (which would never be enough), I'm sticking to my method. Call me crazy!

Will

28 January 2002, 18:17

<500 Nitro>

Thanks for the welcome. Re my moniker, I did register as 500 N a week ago and made 2 posts but someone suggested changing it so it became 500 Nitro.

Will - re when I tire of it, I'm afraid this is unlikely as it is one of my hunting guns and secondly, quite a few people are in front of you.

Regarding regulation and shooting the left barrel first, in my shooting of doubles, I have not yet noticed as difference in the groups on the target but I do like to know that my left barrel shoots to the exact point of aim.

I will be off the net for 2 weeks as I am coming over to the Antique Arms Show & Shot Show in Las Vegas. Anyone else going ?

500 Nitro

29 January 2002, 00:02

Deerdogs

quote:
Originally posted by 500 Nitro:
Thanks for the welcome. Re my moniker, I did register as 500 N a week ago and made 2 posts but someone suggested changing it so it became 500 Nitro.
Will - re when I tire of it, I'm afraid this is unlikely as it is one of my hunting guns and secondly, quite a few people are in front of you.
Regarding regulation and shooting the left barrel first, in my shooting of doubles, I have not yet noticed as difference in the groups on the target but I do like to know that my left barrel shoots to the exact point of aim.
I will be off the net for 2 weeks as I am coming over to the Antique Arms Show & Shot Show in Las Vegas. Anyone else going ?
500 Nitro

John - Sorry I missed you. I got your voicemail message today having been out of the office for a couple of days unexpectedly.

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Regards

Richard