The 500 Gr. FMJ-FN is on my short list for my 45-70 cape buff hunt.



Looking for your thoughts, good and bad. Any of you used this ammo?

Ann,

What kind of velocity do they claim?

I wouldn't rule out the hardcasts either....they penetrate like the dickens if they are hard. Do you plan on using any softs..maybe followed by the solids or just strictly solids?

I can only imagine how mant replies this thread is gonna get!

[ 06-05-2003, 18:31: Message edited by: TXPO ]

Ann
Which model rifle did you end up getting? How does it shoot. I havent shot the hot loads out of my 45/70 as its a sharps and i dont think it would take it. Just 405gr at 1200fps
If i remember correctly they say the 405gr will do 2000fps. the 500gr were around 1600fps.
Can they load some solids at 400gr for you? I am interested in how the 45/70 does. I almost lined up my hunt to be with the kodiak double in 45/70 but decided to wait until I got some more exp. i thinking about checking into the 400gr route. I will be interested in the posts.
Dean

[ 06-05-2003, 19:07: Message edited by: tonto ]

TXPO

Buffalo Bore offers the following for the .45-70:

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 350 Gr. JFN 2150 (Velocity FPS) 3427 (Ft. Lbs. Energy)

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 405 Gr. JFN 2000 3597

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 430 Gr. LBT-LFN 1925 3537

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 500 Gr. FMJ-FN 1625 2931

As you can see the solid 500 grain bullet is slower than the other options. My plan was to use a solid to start and perhaps for any follow up shots too.

Tonto,

BB said these bullets will work very well in the Marlin 1895 I will be using.

This is on their ad:

ATTENTION: Rifles recommended for use with this ammunition: Winchester� 94, Marlin 94, Browning� Model 1885 and 1886. New England Arms � Handy Rifle, Ruger � No. 1 and No. 3. Marlin� Model 1895 manufactured sine 1972, new production Winchester� 1886 and Shiloh Sharps.

[ 06-05-2003, 19:08: Message edited by: Aspen Hill Adventures ]

Ann
Is your Marlin the short one? Is it ported I was looking at some the other day and was told all the new ones are ported now.
Dean

Ann,

My personal choice would be that 430 LBT! Those LBT bullets have a large meplat with those sharp cutting shoulders....I believe it would do more 'cutting' than the FMJ-FN and penetrate well too. If that load shot well in my rifle and I was going after buff with a 45-70....the rifle would be loaded with nothing but the LBT.....but that's just my opinion.

I wonder if those velocities are with a 26" barrel, or with a shorter barrel guide gun. I would guess that they chronographed those loads with a 26" Ruger No. 1, so it would be best to expect a bit less velocity from a 20 or 22" barrel.

No, it is not ported. I have Rusty's Marlin to practice with here but will be using Rob's gun to do the hunt. I have too much crap to carry already along with my own rifle and bow.

Rusty's rifle was drop kicked pretty bad by UPS, they broke the stock, which they are taking responsibility for. Another reason I don't want to take his gun is it belongs to him and not me and I would rather not worry about the airlines ruining it too. So, I will get some practice with it to get the feel of the hard slamming 500 grain bullets and then sight in Rob's gun before the hunt.

If we get more comments on the different weight and types of bullets BB offers here I would be appreciative if someone thinks the others are better suited.

TXPO,

Thanks, you must have posted just while I was writing the last comment. I wonder if a combination of these would be better?

Dan,

Thanks for your input too. I will find out what barrels were used. I like the idea of the 500 grain bullet but have noticed it is much slower and thus a lower foot pound number to boot. I am by far no expert in these types of things but am very curious. I have no plans to buy a .45-70 now or in the future as I am happy with the firearms I already own. So this is a one and only sort of hunt.

Please keep the comments coming.

Ann, I am just into the .45-70 thingy, but besides buffalo bore, you might want to look at Randy garret's hammer heads, they are a little more pricey, but Vince Lupo used them to hammer Elephant, buff, lion, leopard, rhino, and hippo[you can see the pics on garret's web sight]. If they are accurate in your gun, it's kinda hard to argue with success!

Mad Dog

Thanks Mad Dog, I am considering them as well as the Speer 458-500 GR. Tungsten Solid African Grand Slam but at $134.95 for 25 makes me pucker real tight. At that cost I'd have little to work with for practice which isn't practical. I'd also have to get someone to make the loads for me as I do not have reloading equipment set up yet nor the time and skill to learn it before the hunt.

So with this, that is what made BB ammo look attractive for me. Convenience as it is ready to shoot and at a somewhat "fair" price.

[ 06-05-2003, 20:03: Message edited by: Aspen Hill Adventures ]

Ann....I still like those 430 LBT's @ 1925 fps! Don't discount those hardcast bullets....they are deadly.

Jeeeezzzz...I'm getting really pumped about this hunt...and I'm not the one going!!!

Ann
Sorry if I came accross as being nosey about the gun. I just thought you got a new toy as part of the deal.
I have a similar problem as Ive bought a 458 win mag that doesnt want to push a 500gr bullet to the speed most feel is required. I recieved some good advice and ran it buy the Ph and he also thought it would be better for me to push a 450gr at a higher speed than the 500gr slower.
So im taking the wise ones advice and seeing if I can get 450gr to 2300fps.
I dont know what those 430gr are but the #s look better,
Dean

Ann,

Have you searched the Big Bore forum at Marlin's website. Vince Lupo posts there on occasion and might have some interesting input.

If nothing else it's the altar to all things Marlin with big holes through the bore.

hth

Rick

Hey Tonto, No problem, I didn't think you were being nosey!

Rick, I have read there but not in a while, good suggestion though.

Ann, I use the Buffaloe stuff and its very well loaded and shoots well in my browning,but for your hunt I would use the new Garrett load that he came up with just for the African big boys,either way that big flat nose is going to slap him pretty good.

Ann, I'll make you a deal. If you agree to shoot the buffalo with ONLY Garrett's lead bullets (I don't care what grain), then I will pay for 3 boxes of them. That would give you two boxes to practice with and a full box of 20 to shoot into the buffalo. (I will not warrant that 20 shots will be enough to kill a buff, so you might want to save a handful of the practice loads too).

The conditions are:

1. You shoot the buff only with the Garrett stuff.

2. You photograph the exit holes and post them.

3. If any bullets are recovered, then you photograph and post them.

4. You describe the angles of the shots, how the buff reacted, how long it took to fall over, etc. here on this forum so that we can all enjoy the excitement.

Just let me know and I will send the check.

Hmmm, decisions, decisions!!!

Dan, I will let you know shortly if I accept your offer. The plan has always been to document everything about the hunt so that part you can be assured will happen no matter what ammo I end up using.

Ann, I know Randy will not pro-mo the rounds for you but what the heck give him a call, and talk to him, after speaking to him a couple of years ago it answered alot of my questions

Considering the exposure this particular Cape Buffalo hunt has had, and is going to have upon Ann's return, I did think it was pretty cheesy that Randy Garrett wouldn't even throw one box of his ammo Ann's way. Leads one to think that maybe it wasn't worth the risk of negative press if they failed???

Anyway, I still think that Garrett's stuff is the best out there for the job. (and I do give Randy Garrett credit for having the cajones to come to AR and stick up for himself).

Ann, strictly for interests sake I hope you do take 500grain up on his offer. I would really like to know if they work as well as they are billed, and as I mentioned above, I think they are the best out there for the job at hand (even if you could hunt another animal for the same price that the ammo would normally cost! ).

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

I was considering getting a couple of boxes of Randys 45-70+P for myself just to try and to have around....but at $50 a box...that hurts! But I really believe that he has the right stuff for the big stuff!

John, thanks for the reminder! But I come from a time when I collected pop cans to put gas in my car. Wait, I still cash them in to this day!

I am still debating as to what I will do.

Ann,

Take 500 grains up on his offer. Good to see he finally got involved in the Raffle.

Here is the round you should use. This I believe is the ammo Vince Lupo used in his very successful hunt.



GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS

540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS

THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES.

ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .368; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS

Randy, if you are reading this, would be great PR for your fine ammo by supplying the ammo Ann needs for her practice and hunt. How about it?

Go ge em gal, wish it were me.HI

Roger QSL

Roger and Dan,

I take it these Garrett's are a "factory ammo"?

I am seriously considering the offer. Sounds like not only will I get a dead buffalo but quite possibly a broken clavical.

Ann,
don't you worry about hurting that Marlin! Just take it if you want to. Have fun!

Ann,

Yep, its factory ammo produced by Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges.

Here's the link to the 45/70 ammo on his website... http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

Read this too, it gives a good description of the intent behind each of the Hammerhead offerings... http://www.garrettcartridges.com/420.asp

Cheers,
Canuck

Ann,

Take Rusty's fine offer, and use his gun for both practice and the actual hunt. Get real familiar with it, both in handling and shot placement. We all want you back safe and sound.

Yes, the Garrett's are from his factory. Vince Lupo used this very round to do his very successful hunt.

Keep us posted as to your progress in preparing for your hunt.

Roger QSL

Ann
I would take 500 Grains up on his offer. [A very nice offer by the way 500 Grains]
I have used Garrett's 44 Mag and 45-70 ammo and have found it to be excellent. His 45-70 ammo has shot very good in 2 Marlins, a Kodiak Double and a Ruger No1. I have spoken to Randy Garrett a few times and found him to be a very nice fellow.
Good luck on your trip.

Fair warning: Please read the account of lead bullet failures over on the African Hunting forum.

Offer still stands.

I think Meat Plate must have some personal investment in cast lead bullets...

Meat Plate is just making a point....properly constructed hardcast bullets do work, and work well. I would rather poke something with a good hardcast than a mediocre jacketed.

Ann....take 500grains offer and don't sweat it......have a great time and whack an awesome buff!!!

TXPO,

Actually, I am looking for some evidence that hard cast bullets "work well" on buff. The only evidence posted here in this forum was when Vince shot the dangerous 6 with hard cast from Garrett. Multiple shots were needed, and he reported that 4 of the 6 animals charged him.

Maybe Ann will give the Garrett stuff another chance, but if she chooses to use modern bullets it will probably be better for her health.

500grains,

I'm not saying that hard cast bullets are the best projectile to use on tough animals but with the caliber and velocity we are dealing with (.45-70 450gr+/- @ 1900 fps +/-) I believe it's the most logical choice because what you absolutley MUST have is penetration. A good hardcast will give you that and do a bit of tissue damage in the process with a those sharp cutting shoulders. I would feel better using hardcasts exclusively and leave the softs at home.

But then again....I've never shot a Cape Buffalo so I have no personal experience in the matter ...it's just what I would do under similar circumstances. If I had a choice I would use my .416 Taylor or as a minimum, my .375 H&H

Nevertheless, the outcome will certainly be interesting!

Ok, it is now between these two:

Buffalo Bore

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 430 Gr. LBT-LFN 1925 3537

.45-70 Gov't Mag. 500 Gr. FMJ-FN 1625 2931

Big bore shooters, tell me what these two different bullets "should do" considering their construction, upon striking the intended game.

Which do you think will perform better?

Without knowing is the cast lead is too hard and therefore brittle, or too soft and therefore easily deformed, it is a difficult comparison to make. The safe choice is the FMJ stuff.

Thanks Dan. Anyone else? Keep the comments coming.

I'm with 500grains on this one. If I knew the quality and hardness of the 430 LBT thats the one I would use. But poking Cape Buffalo isn't the time to find out how good an unknown cast bullet is. So, with that in mind, I relunctantly agree with using the 500 FMJ....Have you ruled out the Garrets all together???

Yes, the Garretts are ruled out.

I will be using the 500 Grain BB ammo on this hunt. The decision has been made and I have made an order.

I expect that it being a solid it "should" give me a good through and through hole if no shoulder bones are hit and if bones are hit I hope it has enough ummpf to break them.

Guess there is one way to find out!