The Accurate Reloading Forums
Question
28 March 2018, 23:19
Bwana1Question
2 round balls of the same material are fired at the same velocity. One ball is 50 cal, the other ball is 30 cal. Will they be traveling at the same velocity after 50 yds? Thanks.
29 March 2018, 00:04
BiebsI would think the 50 cal ball would have greater wind resistance, and therefore shed velocity at faster rate?
29 March 2018, 01:13
ramrod340Momentum? I lean towards the 50 being faster
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
29 March 2018, 03:32
Dulltool17What Biebs said..
Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member
29 March 2018, 03:45
EnglandThe 50 cal ball will have the greater velocity.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com...cs/rbballistics.html29 March 2018, 04:00
Mike_Dettorregiven they are of the same material, they will have the same weight to diameter ratio assuming a weight of 250 and 150 grains respectively, the 50 cal has a BC of ~.094 and the 30 cal has a BC of ~.157. There is an estimator for just about everything on the internet.
Therefore, the 30 cal will be travelling faster.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
29 March 2018, 04:05
Mike_DettorreEngland - I can't get the calculator at the link to work. Did you get it to work?
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
29 March 2018, 06:41
Fjold.50 caliber ball of 187.5 grains at 1400 fps
Yards..Velocity
100 ....904
125 ....843
150 ....788
175 ....735
200 ....684
.30 caliber ball of 40.5 grains at 1400 fps
Yards..Velocity
100 ....752
125 ....667
150 ....588
175 ....515
200 ....447
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
29 March 2018, 07:02
Bwana1quote:
Originally posted by Fjold:
.50 caliber ball of 187.5 grains at 1400 fps
Yards..Velocity
100 ....904
125 ....843
150 ....788
175 ....735
200 ....684
.30 caliber ball of 40.5 grains at 1400 fps
Yards..Velocity
100 ....752
125 ....667
150 ....588
175 ....515
200 ....447
50 cal. Ball weights 4x more than 30 cal..does not seem correct.
29 March 2018, 07:12
ramrod340That is about right.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
29 March 2018, 07:13
Mike_DettorreBad Math see below
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
29 March 2018, 07:21
ramrod340Mike where did you pull your numbers? 30 cal is basically #1 buckshot which is 40gr
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
29 March 2018, 07:29
Mike_DettorreI was doing a calculation but the wrong one...
the volume of a sphere is not two dimensional its three dimensional 4/3 pi r to the third.
Fjold calcs are right. going from .3 to .5 creates effectively 4x the volume hence 4x the weight.
I was AFU in my math the first time
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
29 March 2018, 07:50
ramrod340
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
29 March 2018, 07:55
Bwana1quote:
Originally posted by ramrod340:
Mike where did you pull your numbers? 30 cal is basically #1 buckshot which is 40gr
Correct for lead. However the question did not specify what material. Only the same material.
29 March 2018, 10:10
sambarman338Well, you learn something new every day if you're lucky! But now I see new posts have landed since I looked at this thread this morning.
I would have thought the BC for round balls would have been the same for all calibres and that if the bigger ball caught more air, its greater mass would compensate and finally that mass would tell in energy if not penetration.
I remember my uncle saying he thought No. 4 shot was better for shooting foxes than No. 2 because the smaller shot suffered less resistance from the fur and thus penetrated better. I don't imagine he was right.
It has long been my understanding that wind resistance against shot increases seriously with increased velocity and that hi-vel shotshells worked mainly by blowing the patterns from full-choke guns, whereby more game was hit. Hence the advice given me was that if you wanted more power at greater distances from standard-length shells it was better to throw more of a heavier shot size at lower velocity than to try pushing a standard load at high speed.
30 March 2018, 04:55
FjoldI'm not a math wiz.
I just Googled "Round Ball Ballistic Calculator" and entered .50 caliber and .30 caliber.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
30 March 2018, 05:45
sambarman338I tried that, Frank, but could not be bothered jumping through all the hoops. It is repeatedly stated, though, that the 50 cal. ball does weigh about 4.5 times as much as the .30 cal - and this must carry some weight in the argument
31 March 2018, 23:15
surestrikeIt just goes to show that it takes a bigger set of balls to get stuff done in this world.
01 April 2018, 01:13
roughoneAccording to the Lyman Black Powder Handbook, the BC of a .319 round ball is .045 and the .495 ball is .070. That volume thingy makes the difference.
(You can't fix stupid)
Falls of Rough Ky University
Our victory cry is FORK U!
roughone, Builder of Fine Flintlocks, the most elegant of round ball shooters,
nice to see you are able to get away from the forge to make a post here occasionally,
along with the rest of us goof-offs.
Yes, this is a good illustration of "square-cube law."
Ball diameter increases linearly.
The presenting area and resistance to the ball increases as the square of the diameter.
The volume, hence mass and momentum that overcomes that resistance, increases as the cube of the diameter.
Sticking to round, lead balls of various diameter, the bigger balls win everytime when started off at the same MV.
Rip ...
01 April 2018, 15:35
sambarman338quote:
Originally posted by roughone:
According to the Lyman Black Powder Handbook, the BC of a .319 round ball is .045 and the .495 ball is .070. That volume thingy makes the difference.
Thanks. So shape isn't everything.
22 April 2018, 06:22
Cold Trigger FingerAs sad a thing as it it . No , shape is not the final deciding factor. To get a higher B.C. it takes weight along with shape. If 2 50 caliber round balls are the exact same diameter and started at the same velocity. But 1 is made from lead and 1 is made from copper, brass, aluminum. The lead ball will have the highest sd and bc .
Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
Its all about drag ( resistance to penetration)
the ball with the biggest sectional density will retain the most velocity at the same distance measured.
ie the ball with the biggest SD will have the least drag.
in 1943 two American officers did wound ballistics research and this is a simplified rendition of their test.
They used aluminium spheres and fired them into gelatine.
Now we can substitute the gelatine for air and if the start velocity is the same we see that the biggest sphere has the least drag and thus will a a certain distance retain the most velocity.
22 April 2018, 06:56
Fjoldquote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
As sad a thing as it it . No , shape is not the final deciding factor. To get a higher B.C. it takes weight along with shape. If 2 50 caliber round balls are the exact same diameter and started at the same velocity. But 1 is made from lead and 1 is made from copper, brass, aluminum. The lead ball will have the highest sd and bc .
Conservation of momentum may also factor in.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
Momentum is always conserved.
What is at issue here is rate of change in momentum. (Delta P )
05 May 2018, 03:36
376 steyrThe 50 caliber will have more inertia and should travel faster. Drop an elephant and mouse off a high cliff at the same time. The elephant has less surface area to mass proportionally than the mouse. The elephant will fall hard and the mouse although injured might survive. In cold climates animals of the same species tend to grow larger and stay warmer than if they were smaller like they are in hot climates. Less surface area for mass keeps you warmer.