Just received a 450-500 Express from a forum member. I need info on the cartridge and the maker Reed Thompson Jr.
Thanks Butch

450/500 Express is an 19th century black powder cartridge developed in England (chambered elasewhere too) also loaded as a nitro for black powder cartridge later.

It is based on the 500 case necked down to ~.458" You should cast the chamber and slug the bore since there was variation in most older English cartridges and also in bore dimensions.

I believe the original loading would have been a paper patched lead bullet, but today's reloaders have choices of cast lead and jacketed bullets as well. I am at work and don't have access to reference books that would give bullets weight and velocity of the main or alternate loads.

When you have the loading sorted out, it ought to make a fine boar, deer or elk rifle.

Searching old Double Gun Journals will turn up a number of articles and storries by Sherman Bell and Ross Syfried.

Good luck and good fun!

JPK

Thanks JPK, any information will be appreciated.
Butch

Butch,

The original designation was 500/450. Like many of the British express cartridges it began as a BP round and moved into the Nitro era.

It was Holland's primary 450 bore cartridge competing with Rigby's 450 3 1/4 until the ban on 450s in India made the gunmakers develop alternative rounds like the 465, 470, 475, etc.

It offered a substantial reduction in pressure vs the 450 3 1/4 straight that was viewed as important in the heat of the tropics.

Here's Kynamcos info on it:

http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...rtridge%20range.htm#

It appears that you are correct. I did a chamber cast The cartridge case is approx. 2.700 with a groove diameter of .4555. The neck OD is .477. The base of the case above the rim is .510 and at the shoulder .500. I need to see if I can find brass and dies or brass that I can form the cases from. Load data will be next.
Butch

George A. Hoyem, in VOLUME THREE (BRITISH SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES), of
THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION,
has 10 pages with lots of pictures devoted to the 500/450s, pp 93-102.

They start as small as 500/450 No.1 Carbine (1-9/16") and are as long as the 500/450 3-1/2".

The closest one to 2.7" case length is the 500/450 NO.1 Express (2-3/4").

"Based on the .500-3" case, this necked down .450 with 2.75" case duplicated the coiled brass version (ballistics) of the .450-3-1/4" straight,
with 110 grains of powder (black powder) and 270-grain bullet.
The upper specimen's headstamp reads -- N.A.&A. Co. W.R. No 505.
Westley Richards did originate this cartridge in the 1870s for use in their Deeley & Edge single shot rifles, but the significance of 'No 505' has not been determined--possibly reference to a patent or to a series.
This is the only such numbered Westley Richards cartridge found so far.

"The next cartridge has the embossed, or raised, headstamp 'KYNOCH&Co BIRMINGHAM' with wax-filled hollow point bullet.
The third is a target load manufactured by National Arms and Ammunition Company.
Eley Brothers Limited catalog for 1892 shows such a round labeled "Deeley-Edge-Metford" with 90 grains of powder and a 540-grain Metford bullet. The dark gray packet with black label contained nitro-for-black cartridges.
Information is lacking on this obscure maker."

(above from page 97)

On that pictured label the load is 41 grains of smokeless powder with 325-grain bullet.
Apparently loaded by:
"WORKS:--BARWICK, HERTS"

DRG: Kiss my grits.

If you are reading .4555" grooves, sounds like any trapdoor 45-70 Govt. loads would be a safe place to start.

SAAMI groove for .45-70 Govt. is .456".
Cast bullets of .457" diameter would be a great place to start, 300 to 500 grains.

The BP loads for the cartridge ought to be most like a Quigley 45/110/500.
You might get .457-cal/500-grain cast lead boolits into the range of 1300 to 1500 fps.
Surely no more.

DRG: Kiss my grits.

.510" base diameter cannot be correct for most of the many 500/450s.
Most of those are .577".
What the heck do you have there?
Is it a modern custom gun, or antique?
Single shot or double?

From COTW: "Perhaps no cartridges in the world are more abundant or more confusing than those of British origin labeled 500/450, followed by one or another designator. There are no less than 19 listings of individually identified cartridges in Fleming's British Sporting Cartridges ..."

Maybe you really do have a 450-500 Express, and it is an American wildcat?
That is American nomenclature for a 45-cal based on necking up some mysterious 500 case.

Even the 450 NE 3-1/4" has a bigger base diameter than yours.
That would be .545" base diameter for the thin-rimmed straight 450.

.510" base???
That could not possibly be a 500-anything case.

The closest thing to a .510" base diameter would be a 450 Marlin with the belt turned off, .511" base.
The 45/70 has a .5039" base max brass, and .5067" min chamber base (SAAMI).

450-500 Express ... Weird, eh?

DRG: Kiss my grits.

butchlambert,
If it has a .510" base, above the rim, it is not a British 500/450 of any kind.
It would seem to be not a 500 of any kind,
unless the "500" refers to the weight in grains of the bullet it is supposed to fire?

DRG: Kiss my grits.

I believe it means 500grns of bullet and a 450 diameter bullet?
Butch

Perhaps it is just a 45-120 based (Shortened and Improved) Wildcat

Norma Case Length: 3.25"
Body Diameter ahead of rim: .506" nominal

The .45-110 (2 7/8ths) sounds pretty close and Starline makes that brass.

Rich

Oh yeah.
If the .510" was from a chamber cast, then the .506" base diameter for brass would be perfect ...
Must be a cowboy wildcat.

DRG: Kiss my grits.

I need to read more carefully! I didn't realize this was a belted rimless cartridge, so I deleted my post on this thread, as it simply doesn't aply!

..............Sorry about that!

My fault as I didn't examine the cerrosafe cast closely enough or the chamber itself. It is a belted magnum. I am pretty sure that it is a 450 Ackley. Checking as closely as I can, I believe a 458Lott fireformed in the rifle will make the appropriate brass. Check my other post for new dimensions. Sorry for leading you guys on a wild goose chase. Also thanks for the help.
Butch