The Accurate Reloading Forums
Re: Are the 400 HH and 465 HH fact or fiction?
20 August 2004, 08:58
500grainsQuote:
Weatherby is about to offer then in this model
http://www.weatherby.com/custom_shop/HGI/images/Custom_Large/custom_crown.jpg
Well, if they were not DOA, they will be if weatherby offers them.
20 August 2004, 09:17
OldsargeIf that's conservative does that make me reactionary? Bleagh!, the both of them.
20 August 2004, 09:54
Frank MartinezYuck! and Double Yuck!
Frank
20 August 2004, 08:09
500grainsI have seen more evidence of UFOs than evidence that the 400 HH and 465 HH actually exist. Are there factory rifles and ammo available in these calibers yet?
20 August 2004, 16:57
HunterJim500grains,
Development of both cartridges proceeds apace. Wolfgang Romey is the source for factory ammunition, although I have not seen any factory ammunition in the US yet (except at the SCI Convention in the H&H display).
When I last checked with Holland in July they were having Woodleigh do a thicker jacket on the .411"/400 grain bullet, which was the same bullet as the .450/.400 used at 2,150 fps IIRC. The .465 H&H is in the field "testing" in Botswana and Tanzania. Reports to date are five elephant with six shots, all solids.
Holland works to their own product development schedule, and they fully expect that the .400 and the .465 will have careers similar to the .375 -- which is still going strong. This is why they are taking care to "get it right" as they told me. This is in marked contrast to US factories who don't seem to understand what field testing is, other than loaning a rifle to a friendly gun writer.
If you subscribe to African Hunter you can read my report when, it due time, it emerges too.
jim
20 August 2004, 16:19
500grainsJohn,
Any corner gunsmith could do it right and turn the product out in 90 days time. H&H's premature announcement followed by extremely slow product introduction leads one to doubt their competence in this area. Perhaps they are learning the art of cartridge design from scratch since they have not done it since 1912.
Jim,
Glad to see your input as to this subject. If the internet would have been around when the 375 came out, I'm sure the same type of posts whould have sent it to Big Bore heaven to.HI
Roger QSL
20 August 2004, 18:45
John RicksPatience=Old English term, steeped in the tea of tradition, used to describe a length of time, short to some, an eternity to others.
I have dabbeled with the 400, and posted chrono data with chamber pressures over on the Nitro Express forum. Do a little searching. Sadly (as it is a back burner project) I have not had time to complete the rifle, but I anticipate having the stock complete in mid 2005.
Both cartrides are alive and in rifles built by Holland. Both have been field tested in Africa. Jim Dodd and I have conversed with Russell Wilkin of H&H concerning both.
And, the Paradox is coming back!!! (If one does not know what the Paradox is, then it is time to expand your library).
Maybe new cartridges are not needed, but they are fun to work with and fill a niche, although small.
21 August 2004, 04:57
GeorgeSDuplicate post deleted by GeorgeS
21 August 2004, 06:06
jorge500grains: I take EXTREME EXCEPTION to your unfounded denigration of Weatherby rifles. How many have you owned and shot/hunted with? If your tastes ( or wallet) preclude you from owning one FINE, but don't try and peddle your bullshit to those of us that have and use Weatherbys. Somehow I was misguided for a moment there I thought you actually KNEW something about firearms. That photograph of that abortion you showed explains your taste in rifles. jorge
PS: I know it's not 500s but it fits!
21 August 2004, 04:57
GeorgeSH&H doesn't market to the masses. They can survive without having to flood the world with their products,
a la the .17HMR craze.
While their choice of bullet diameter may be curious, at least they didn't make them short magnums.
The .400H&H won't do anything that the .416 Rem. or .416 Hoffman don't already do, and the .465H&H won't do anything that .458 Lott or .470 Capstick do.
It's another choice, that's all. If and when they release final cartridge dimensions, I expect a number of rifles chambered for these cartridges will be built by people who attend this forum.
George
21 August 2004, 07:04
HunterJimYes, the .465 H&H is based on the big Weatherby brass. See the article I did for African Hunter for details. This one is a couple of years old now, no field results included.
http://www.african-hunter.com/new_h&h_cartridges.htmjim
21 August 2004, 07:31
jorgeNow there is a well-crafted, articulate retort. Still waiting on an anwer to the question, but I suspect we aren't going to get it. Just more hot air. If I ever decide to indeed "take a Midol," I'll be sure to ask you for one, as you obviously know what their effects are. jorge
21 August 2004, 07:33
500grainsQuote:
I am 99% sure the 465 H&H is 378 based.
Mike
Mike you are correct.
400 H&H:
465 H&H:
These drawings are from Jim's article.
While we are on the topic, here are the only calibers H&H lists for its magazine rifles: 240 H&H, .244 H&H, .275 H&H, .300 H&H, .375 H&H, .400 H&H, .465 H&H.
Here are the only calibers H&H lists for their double rifles: 240 H&H, 7mm H&H, 8mm, 275 H&H, .300 H&H, 9.3mm, .375 H&H, .465 H&H, .577, .600, .700 H&H, .470, .500/3", 9,3x74R.
There are a couple of odd things. The first is that they are offering so many belted magnums in double rifles. And the second is that they do not offer the 400 HH in a double rifle.
21 August 2004, 05:29
John RicksBashing the 400 and 465 is sort of like saying "I would rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy".
Some folks like 'em, some don't.
IMHO this is not an excuse to bash someone's personal opinion.
400 H&H is based on 375 H&H brass.
465 H&H is based on 460 Weatherby brass, or 378 WEA, or 416 Wea, whichever one you call it.
Cartridge overall length for both is 3.5".
Anyone want either, I will be able to build one for much less than the H&H prices. NECG masterpiece sights and stocked properly for the iron sights.
I should have the Mauser actioned 400 in final form by mid 2005.
21 August 2004, 06:42
GeorgeSJorge,
That photo is from a GunsAmerica ad; it's not 500grains'.
George
20 August 2004, 20:37
MartinPottsHay Mike375
At least the brass is cheap
Quality Cartridge Brass 400 H&H Magnum Box of 20
Product #: 325716
Manufacturer #: 400HH
Our Price: $33.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/325716Ok maybe not the 465 H&H Brass...
Quality Cartridge Brass 465 H&H Magnum Box of 20
Product #: 735052
Manufacturer #: 465HH
Our Price: $87.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/735052 20 August 2004, 22:54
Karl465 is the bigger case and one article said it was in mind of the pressure concerns about a "Lott size case and optimal 2400fps velocities" etc.
Karl.
20 August 2004, 23:53
mark smithI was in the H&H London shop a year ago and handled a new 465. Very nice set up for scope use with a Swarovski mounted. Richard Balk who I spoke to said they were happy for other firms to make the ammunition as their interest was in selling rifles. Some discussion had taken place with Federal.
Mark
21 August 2004, 04:19
Paul HQuote:
(sic)
It also continues to puzzle me why so Americans hate or dislike Weatherby rifles when they are so Americana, virtually the Chev Corvettes of rifles. In fact one of the things that use to always irritate me with Weatherbys was the Made in Japan on a rifle that was just so American.
Mike
Mike,
Just because they have an "American" style, doesn't mean all American's like them.
I would never buy a Weatherby, a Cadilac, or Budweiser beer. They may be uniquely American in style, but not my style. Give me a custom Mauser 98, a BMW and a good micro brew 
20 August 2004, 11:49
Michael RobinsonAt the SCI convention in Reno last January, H&H donated a set of three best quality magazine rifles, one in .375, another in .400 and the last in .465, for auction.
I examined them and they were of the quality one would expect. The suggested retail price for the set was, I believe, $175,000.
I don't know who bought them (or even if they sold) or whether they've ever made any more in .400 or .465.
As for Weatherbys, I say to each his own taste, but they're not for me.
21 August 2004, 07:20
500grainsQuote:
500grains: I take EXTREME EXCEPTION to your unfounded denigration of Weatherby rifles. How many have you owned and shot/hunted with? If your tastes ( or wallet) preclude you from owning one FINE, but don't try and peddle your bullshit to those of us that have and use Weatherbys. Somehow I was misguided for a moment there I thought you actually KNEW something about firearms. That photograph of that abortion you showed explains your taste in rifles. jorge
Take a Midol.
20 August 2004, 11:43
teal325Holy FUGLY! If H&H doesn't atleast 1 rifle made up for these rounds (givin the wait typicaly for a London gun of H&H quality) they are really slipin'
20 August 2004, 11:40
Hog KillerHow can H&H put their name on these rounds when they apperantly do not have rifles so chambered
.
21 August 2004, 13:47
MartinPotts Mike i kinda like the 450 Rigby...
I am just kinda miffit thay did not come out somthing in the .366 Diam Like the 9.3x90 Kudo Wacker
21 August 2004, 13:45
HunterJim500grains,
What the .400 H&H and .465 H&H do is provide cartridges with the Holland house style in a magazine rifle: belted case, lots of taper for feeding and extraction and low pressure. Each cartridge brings a famous double rifle rimmed cartridge bullet to the magazine rifle:
*.411"/400 grain from the .450/.400 Nitro to the .400 H&H; and
*.468"/480 grain from the .465 Nitro to the .465 H&H.
This brings hunters a low-pressure alternative to the .416 Rem Mag -- which needs it from reports in African Hunter.
The blessings of the .465 H&H are not as obvious, but it certainly will be an alternative to the .460 Weatherby -- which is too much of a good thing.
jim
21 August 2004, 13:21
Mike375500,
A marketing gimmick suggests something that is of no use or is less than of no use.
However, that is not the case with the 400 H&H and 465 H&H as both H&H and the customer gain.
Any customer of H&H is going to prefer a 400 H&H to a 416 Remington and also a 465 H&H to either a 450 Rigby/Dakota or 460 Wby. H&H will also gain as there would be some customers who would like to have bigger than 375 but don't buy because of no previous H&H option.
Also, consider the resale value of an H&H in 416 Remington Vs 400 H&H.
Mike
21 August 2004, 14:01
tiggertate9.3 is probably not a popular diameter at a British gun house. Too many egos involved for that to fly.
21 August 2004, 18:54
HunterJim500grains,
So if the .465 H&H came first, then the .450 Rigby and .450 Dakota would be marketing gimmicks?
jim
21 August 2004, 18:03
500grainsJim!
As I understand it, Rem has now downloaded the 416 Rem factory ammo so that it falls between 2100 and 2200 fps to avoid the past pressure problems. Probably the reports in African Hunter were helpful in bringing that about.
Basically the 400 HH duplicates the 404 Jeff and the 465 HH duplicates the 450 Rigby / 450 Dakota / 460 A-Square. Since they are just duplicates of something that already exists, but with a trivial difference in packaging, I call them a marketing gimmick. And Mike375 is reinforcing this point by indicating that two identical HH rifles may have different values if one is in an HH caliber and the other is not.
Just my opinion.
21 August 2004, 12:49
500grainsAlf, that list of calibers is direct from their website, although I had to combine the lists for their royal and round action doubles. But it is quite clear they are offering belted magnum calibers in doubles.
As for the 400 HH or 465 HH being 'bad', I did not read where anyone said that. Just that they are a marketing gimmick because they do exactly what existing calibers do, but with a different label. The odd bore sizes seem to be part of the marketing gimmick, apparently under the theory that they would not want someone shooting common bullets out of one. In contrast, the 700 HH provides a difference in performance compared to other extant offerings. For example, it shoots a heavier bullet faster than the 600 NE. It may not have any advantage in the field, but it is different than a 600 NE. But I call the 400 HH and 465 HH a marketing gimmicl because they provide nothing ballistically that is not already available off the shelf.
If a person wants to buy them, more power to him, but he should understand that the cartridges have essentially wildcat status since ammo will come from just one source. I own wildcats and they can be fun, but I do not expect to be able to find ammo for them.
22 August 2004, 06:11
Mike375500,
Perhaps our definitions of a gimmick differ.
To me a gimmick is something that provides nothing but people believe they are getting "something". However, "something" does not need to be pure function. So I come back to my question...would you pick a 416 Hoffman (or 416 Remington) over a 400 H&H for the H&H rifle?
We both know that the number of rifles that H&H will have made in 416 Remington will be something less than 1
but there would have been people who would have liked an H&H in bigger than 375.
Mike
22 August 2004, 05:33
500grainsFourTails,
I have no information about that ugly gun except that it is for sale on Gunsamerica (i.e., I do not own it even though one irate poster mistakenly assumed that I do). My point is that it is an American product of which most of us are not proud. Just like Weatherby.
Mike,
The calibers are marketing gimmicks because they add no functional utility over what is already available. Being able to charge a higher price based on name is not utility. It is a gimmick.
So if you go to the Toyota dealer and they offer you a Corolla for US$15,000, but will sell you the Moronolla for $20,000 and the two cars are absolutely identical in materials, manufacturer, etc. except for name, isn't the Moronolla a marketing gimmick?
Jim,
When Remington came out with the 416 Rem, they just changed George Hoffman's 416 Hoffman a whisker and re-named it the 416 Rem. They did that so that they could offer a Remington rifle in a Remington cartridge without giving anyone else credit for the original idea. It was a marketing gimmick.
As for 40 caliber cartridges that pushes a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps and fit into a model 98 action, Jeffery gets the credit for the 404 Jeff.
As for a 45 (or mid 40's) cartridge that pushes a 500 grain bullet at 2400 fps based on the 378 wby case and fits in a mauser 98 action, Art Alphin gets the credit for the 460 A-Square short.
Exactly what do the 400 HH and 465 HH achieve that the 404 jeff and 460 a-square short do not achieve? Only use of HH's name for marketing purposes. A gimmick, not added utility. Of course most of the general public will fall for gimmicks. That is why people will pay extra for chrome wheels on their car when regular wheels turn around in a circle just as well as chrome ones.
21 August 2004, 19:00
Mike375But 500, that is not gimmick and would definitley not be trivial.
I am betting if you got one of H&H's rifles and one of the rifles with options like deluxe wood and a recoil pad
you would pick a 400 H&H over a 416 Remington.
Mike
22 August 2004, 05:21
FourTails500 grains, About that "Purty" rifle picture you posted. I'll add my unsolicitated 2 cents. You've got guts, that's for sure!
You wouldn't happen to know the story about the man with the hat that his friend when seeing it for the first time remarked, "You should have bought two of them."
I do have one question though, What in the F*** is that thing used for? Mike
22 August 2004, 08:18
MartinPottsThe 404 jeffery run's between .419 and .423
All the newer 404's ( 20 year's and newer ) run .423 Diam