Big bores

26 April 2004, 05:07

Overkill

Big bores

I have been thinking one 1 thing.
I have always wanted to have the rifle that has most power. (dont know why, maybe because i am young)
And I have my Weatherby mark v rifle in .460 Wby But I have been thinking on the .577 t-rex and .600 OK BUT! If hornebear stops to make brass for these cartridges.. where to gett brass then??

The .460 Wby have more kinetic energy than the .500 NE, .577 NE and .600 NE
So the the first one that beat the .460 In energy is the .500 A-Square. And there is same problem with the brass.
And the other thing is that I dont reload self.

So why not be happy with the .460 Wby that I already have??

Hehe yeah I know this is silly..

26 April 2004, 06:29

jeffeosso

OK,
The 460 is a great round, and loaded down to managable levels (aka 450 rigby) there's nothing wrong with it.

as for power levels, I beleve the 577 matches/beats it, and, frankly, the recoil vel of the 460 is faster, even though the recoil energy is about the same.

the 500a2/510wells/500jeff/505gigs can all be loaded to match or beat the 460.. they ARENT because people can't shot them well.

RNS's 550 mag, 3" and the variant I am working with him on, 2.65" will be the cat's meow, or the bulls' death bellow, for the bolt action gun. MOST mausers/model70's can have the bolt face opened up.. and they start life as 460w brass!!!

for the truely large guns, in a portable weight (less than 12#) the 550 3" in a cz or enfield should run right behind the 577 in power, and recoil, with the same SD bullets, but will be more shootable and have a higher MV.

for example, the 550 (12# rifle)
800 grains sd of .378 (this is a core drill)
mv 2150, recoil 138ft/lbs
ke 8213

700 grains, sd of .331
mv 2250, recoil 121ft/#
ke 7187

650 gr, sd of .307 (this is my targeted load)
mv 2250, recoiil 109 ft/# (about the same as my 500j in a 10.5)
ke 7309

600gr, sd of .,283
mv 2350, recoil 103 ft/#
ke 7359

577 nitro ,14.5#
750gr, sd of .313
mv 2150, recoil 114ft/#
ke 7700

460, 10.5#
500gr
mv 2600, recoil 105#
ke 7507

As we can see, all these rounds are bassically a 44mag KE difference... and that's with the woundabeast being loaded to it MAX load (2500 is a better load (6941ke))

However, a it's been said a zillion times, KE doesn't "kill".. one must provide a failure in any or all of the 3 subsystems, electrical, transmission/structure, and lubriction/circulation...

Which is better? man, anything over a 416 rigby will take anything safely (not to flame the .375 guys) that currently walks the earth... and I believe the .375 can do so as well...

if one shoots a larger bore as well as they can shoot a .375, then that's all great...

if they flinch, shoot the next county, miss an entire buffalo at 20 yards, then the 338 would have been a better choice.

In short, OK, you shoot your 460 well.. but you need to build a rifle with your namesake on it

jeffe

26 April 2004, 07:01

dakota45056

Overkill,

The 600 OK was named in your honor by Rob, better get one and join the club.

Dak

28 April 2004, 07:16

Overkill

"However, a it's been said a zillion times, KE doesn't "kill".. one must provide a failure in any or all of the 3 subsystems, electrical, transmission/structure, and lubriction/circulation..."

Yes, but the KE does damage to the lungs and blood vessels!

28 April 2004, 07:31

500grains

Quote:

ISo why not be happy with the .460 Wby that I already have??

1. Learn to reload an get a real gun.

2. Kinetic energy is of little importance on large, thick-skinned game.

28 April 2004, 07:49

jeffeosso

OK,
here's the situation...

you are facing a snare wounded rogue/problem elephant in tall grass (10-12 feet)

which do you want?
a 6.5 with d2 slugs at 5000fps

or

577 nitro with barnes solids at 2150?

do you CARE about lung damage then?

jeffe

28 April 2004, 08:36

MacD37

Quote:

OK,
here's the situation...

you are facing a snare wounded rogue/problem elephant in tall grass (10-12 feet)

which do you want?
a 6.5 with d2 slugs at 5000fps

or

577 nitro with barnes solids at 2150?

do you CARE about lung damage then?

jeffe

I wouldn't want either of them! A 500NE, 470NE, or even 450NE would do just as well! The 460 WBY is not any more effecient than the 458 LOTT, in a bolt gun, or a 450NE in a double rifle, fpe is not what kills large animals, especially at close range, and IMO, anything bigger, or more powerful, than a 500NE is a waste of powder! The ele in high grass is just as easily killed with a 450/400 3" as with a 700 NE, and I assure you will not get off a second shot with anything bigger that a 500NE double, at 10 yds.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with you useing anything you want, but because the numbers on paper seem impressive, is not translatable into killing power. The only thing gained by these "MINE'S BIGGER THAN YOUR'S" cartridges, is a brused shoulder, and a empty pocketbook, from buying powder!

True, there is no such thing as "OVER-KILL",dead is dead, case closed! There is, however, such a thing as "OVER-CONFIDENCE", or "OVER-ESTIMATION" of killing power, based on numbers on paper!

28 April 2004, 08:50

jeffeosso

Mac,
so, which would you want? 6.5 or 577?

Heck, which do you want.. 6.5 or 470 NE?

That's the POINT... ME means jack

jeffe

29 April 2004, 04:33

MacD37

Quote:

Mac,
so, which would you want? 6.5 or 577?

Heck, which do you want.. 6.5 or 470 NE?

That's the POINT... ME means jack

jeffe

Well Jeffe, I think I'd rather have the 577NE.

With the 460 WBY,in particular, or anything bigger than a 500NE,in general, the usefullness, is at least, suspect. They remind me of fishing lures, designed to catch more fishermen, than fish.

Most of the very large rounds will never be used on anything more dangerous than a paper target. They do make beautifully large holes in PAPER,kick hell out of the owner, and let him garner looks of wonder from the spectators at the range. In that respect, they are a success.

The BIGGER IS BETTER mentality is what drives the sales on this type of cartridge, not their effeciency in the field. There comes a point where one is only burning more powder, and sustaining more recoil, and noise than is needed to do the job at hand.

There is nothing wrong with any cartridge you want to shoot, that's why they make more than one cartridge. However, simply because a certain cartridge is available, in no way, means it is the best for any application, simply because the maker says it is.

29 April 2004, 09:27

Atkinson

Overkill,
I must congratulate you on your honesty as to why you want a big gun, it was a refreshing comment and probably the only real reason to want such guns to hunt with, which after all these years legitamizes the ultra big bores...

29 April 2004, 09:35

500grains

Quote:

But I have been thinking on the .577 t-rex and .600 OK BUT! If hornebear stops to make brass for these cartridges.. where to gett brass then??

My solution is to purchase a lifetime supply of brass at the outset. For a big bore like the 577 ty or the 600 OK, a lifetime supply for a normal human is 200 rounds. At US$4 per round, that means an investment of $800 to be sure you have brass for life. Then try to work out of a box of 20 and not touch the rest. You will be surprised how long a box of 20 lasts when you soak up 150 ft pounds of recoil per shot!

29 April 2004, 21:11

Socrates

Quote:

I wouldn't want either of them! A 500NE, 470NE, or even 450NE would do just as well! The 460 WBY is not any more effecient than the 458 LOTT, in a bolt gun, or a 450NE in a double rifle, fpe is not what kills large animals, especially at close range, and IMO, anything bigger, or more powerful, than a 500NE is a waste of powder! The ele in high grass is just as easily killed with a 450/400 3" as with a 700 NE, and I assure you will not get off a second shot with anything bigger that a 500NE double, at 10 yds.

GOLD!!!

s
450 Nitro express, 480 @ 2150fps, plenty?>>>

s

29 April 2004, 22:20

Overkill

The point with this reply is that the .460 Wby is the biggest rifle I can own.. IF I DONT RELOAD SELF!
The .460 will beat the .500-600 NE in KE power.

Jeffe! I would take the .577 NE for that example. But I just hunt moose and bears as the biggest game. And I think that a .460 wby (500 grains at 2600 FPS) would be more effective than a slow .577 NE

Hmm... If I start to reload some time. How much does one hornebear brass cosT??
And if I want a .600 OK were to build it? I live in sweden. It would be expensive to buy a rifle from USA!?

30 April 2004, 01:06

jeffeosso

OK,
we can agree to disagree on the merits of a 577 vs the 460, alright?

reloading is CHEAP... drop 350bucks and then spend 75ï¿½ a round after than for prem bullets, powder, and primers

Cost isn't really the issue on the 600, it's the gunsmithing required. Find a bigbore expert and start talking to him

jeffe

30 April 2004, 14:37

ACRecurve

Hey Overkill,

Maybe I've been missing your posts but seems like you've been gone awhile--welcome back! I agree with the guys who say you should learn to reload. It's just too much fun and satisfaction and you shouldn't miss it. There's something deeply fulfilling about finding the load your particular rifle shoots best....besides, how many of us can say we have a rifle chambered for a cartridge that was named after us? Go for the 600 Overkill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!