.500-caliber Combos: North Fork Solid, CEB Soft, and More

24 September 2012, 05:14

Started shooting the old style FP solids (Gen.II) first,
but the new style (Gen.III) is going to be the final choice, I am sure.

This is a solid bullet to pair with the CEB MTH .500/430-gr VLD copper hollowpoint.

The CEB MTH "Pointy Thing" (as Doc M called it) hollow point bullet has been proven for accuracy, velocity and terminal integrity.
The latter thanks to MIB terminal testing.

Same can be said for the new North Fork FP solids.

Here is the fifty yard test sighter for the 430-grain CEB,
next to a 3-shot group (same scope setting, unchanged) with the North Fork 450-grain FP solid:

Note that the North Fork solid shoots only 1/2-inch lower than the slightly lighter and faster CEB MTH at 50 yards.

This will be workable.

Also notice how the new North Fork FP (Gen.III) can be seated to the very positive crimp groove,
and have the same length of bullet base seated,
same as with the old FP:

This should produce velocities nearly identical with both bullets, old and new FP solids, so load data should be interchangeable.

Increasing the velocity of the solid-bullet load in this rifle will make it shoot lower.
It might be possible to have it hitting dead on at 100 yards, while the MTH soft is 2 to 3 inches high at 100 yards.

By the time I work this out I will have used up the old style and be using exclusively the new style North Fork FP.

The new FP solid will produce shorter COL.
The old one already feeds well and is faultless for my rifle.
The new one can only be better,
and might feed better in some rifles needing more gunsmithing than mine does.

Subject rifle today was a Winchester M70 chambered for 12.7X68/49-10:

24 September 2012, 06:24

capoward

Very nice Ron!

24 September 2012, 09:35

RIP

Thanks, Jim.
Knew you could use the data.

Will make the 450-grain North Fork FP go about 2600 fps and see where it lands relative to the 430-grain CEB MTH at about 2650 fps ...

But I think I better switch to H4198 with the 375-grain North Fork, and see if it is workable as a solid/soft combo with the 360-grain CEB ESP-Tipped (W350).

96.0 grains of H322 pushed the 375 NF FP solid to only 2575 fps (same COL of 3.385").
Recall that 95.0 grains of H4198 gave 2903 fps with the 360-grain CEB ESP-Tipped (W350) at 3.602" COL.

There was a 4.5" vertical spread at 50 yards between those two. The CEB shot high, the NF shot low.

More load development needed, with H4198, and it will be entirely with the new Gen.III FP, 'cause that's all I have of those in 375-grainers.

All of these loads had plenty of air space left, with the North Forks.
Lots of room left for more powder or the bulkier-for-weight H4198.

However I am going to be simultaneously fiddling with some more "wildcats" along the way:

375/404 JS
400 Whelen
500 Mbogo Short

Will start the 12-step program at "Wildcatters Anonymous" after that.

24 September 2012, 10:06

capoward

Oh yes I can use the data!

I like your 100yd proposition; dead on with the 450gr NF FPS and 2-3" high with the 430gr CEB MTH... Most definitely a workable solution for pairing the two bullets...

Regarding the ESP Raptors - though I have some in both .308 and .500 calibers - I'm leaning more towards Michael's latest position that they're very valuable as they progressively go down in caliber from the .366 caliber and progressively less valuable as they progress in caliber above the .366 caliber. I'm not sure where their value hits the wall, but from Michael's testing with the latest Lever Gun' NonCons I'd have to say the wall is likely at .458 caliber and above...at least for bolt guns...

For .500 caliber, I believe the 365gr CEB BBW#13 HP NonCon W21 LG with the W Ogive Talon Tip should do as we'll trajectory wise as the 350gr CEB ESP Raptor with the W Ogive Talon Tip at 300yds. But I could be wrong...

24 September 2012, 15:24

michael458

RIP

Outstanding! Excellent as always! The 430CEB/450NF, excellent and very very workable where you are right now. Zero issues with the POI of both.

Michael

25 September 2012, 09:48

RIP

Doc M,
Yep, workable, thanks.
Will play with the 375-grainer next, or just save it for 50 B&M AK.

Jim,
With the 49-10, there is no sweat for case capacity with the longer, boat-tailed W350 ESP Raptor at 2900 fps,
but those flat-based 365-grainers with 10-grain tip added would come in at 375 grains ...

And I have samples of those to try too, thanks to Doc M, bless his heart.
They look brand new too, not even rolled on.

26 September 2012, 06:13

capoward

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
Yep, workable, thanks.
Will play with the 375-grainer next, or just save it for 50 B&M AK.

Jim,
With the 49-10, there is no sweat for case capacity with the longer, boat-tailed W350 ESP Raptor at 2900 fps,
but those flat-based 365-grainers with 10-grain tip added would come in at 375 grains ...
And I have samples of those to try too, thanks to Doc M, bless his heart.
They look brand new too, not even rolled on.

Ron,

A couple of years ago, about the time Sam surprised me with a stack of prototype .500 caliber BBW HP monometal bullets (Michael tested 3 in his bullet box), I played with various HP Flat Base bullet weights to identify the 'optimum' trajectory for 325yds. I identified that a 380gr BBW HP FB gave the shortest flight time and best trajectory out to 325yds from my prototype 2.65” 50 MDM (using Ruger basic cylinder brass) cartridge – the prototype just didn’t have enough case taper to go production with but it had a net 90gr H2O capacity with the prototype 380gr BBW HP FB bullet seated to 3.360” COAL.

So it’ll definitely be interesting to see what the 375gr combo weight Talon Tipped W21LG bullet does at 300yds with the powder capacity of the 49-10. Using my prototype 380gr BBW HP FB with the base seated at the shoulder/neck junction gives a projected net 112gr H2O capacity with a 3.533” COAL. So the approximate 22grs H2O extra case capacity ought to really put some oomph behind the Talon Tipped production CEB W21LG bullet! I’m definitely looking forward to that report!

26 September 2012, 07:03

capoward

As much as I like Michael’s proposition of using the Ogive Talon Tip with the 450gr CEB BBW#13 HP NonCon bullet paired with the 500gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid bullet – seated long in either the 50 B&M, to take advantage of a 3.4” magazine, or in the 500 B&M, to take advantage of a 3.6” magazine…

quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
As most of you know, Alasken-Oz came down for a visit a few weeks ago, and Brent also was here one day during that visit. Oz has a 50 B&M built on a Ruger Alaskan. Here it is, we have shown it previously.

Now the one thing that intrigued me from the beginning about this rifle is it's 3.4 inch magazine. What this means is that Oz can load any .500 caliber BBW#13 NonCon, add the new Talon Tips, and they work slick as can be in the magazine. Pretty neat! And if I were not such a hard headed bastard over a Winchester M70, I would have myself one of these! But, I am just that hard headed, so this has been bugging me since Oz was here, until this morning I could not contain myself any longer!

My first thoughts were that I could take one of my coveted long action RUM Winchesters, the ones that the 500 MDM are built on, and just build myself a short 50 B&M on that long 3.6 inch magazine action! Easy! I already tried running 50 B&M through a 500 MDM and they feed and function perfectly, retain, the works, zero issues.

Then I started thinking, maybe I can seat the BBW#13 NonCons out further, to that first groove, crimp them in and increase case capacity this way. So I made up some dummy rounds.

Worked through a 500 MDM like butter, slick and easy. OK then I decided, why not make up some live rounds, and go ahead and shoot them in the 500 MDM and see what happens? I suspected the LONG bullet jump from a 2.25 inch 50 B&M to the 2.8 inch 500 MDM chamber might cause an accuracy issue, but let's try and see what happens.

So I did just that this morning. I started with the same exact loads high end for the 500 BBW#13 Solid and the 450 BBW#13 NOnCon, only seated out long like you see above. I new that velocity would have to drop on these because of the added case capacity, along with pressures as well. I used the tips throughout this test as well.

With 70/H-4198 (gives 2250 fps in standard 18 inch 50 B&M) gave me 2200 fps in the 500 MDM. 66/H-4198 gives me 2150 fps in the 18 inch 50 B&Ms, and seated out further gave me 2050 fps in the 500 MDM. Accuracy was very good--I am most likely responsible for the 500 gr SOlid being hi and slightly right here. 3 rds each.

OK--Encouraged by this accuracy which I did not expect, I loaded everything up two grains. Tried again. This time, the 500 Solid increased to 2100, and the 450 NonCon to 2250. Accuracy on the Solid held rather well--but the 450 was not so good, and POI between the solid and NonCon appeared to be more drastic?

OK, so I dropped the solid at this point out of the tests, as I was pretty sure as I increased velocity my accuracy was going to hell. I might have been shearing bands for all I know, with that much added bullet jump, over a 1/2 inch. So I went back, 2 more grains in the 450 to 74/H-4198. This should take it over 2300, and it did to 2307 fps. Accuracy still an issue.

So at this point I gave up on actually using the 500 MDM and shooting 50 B&M ammo through it. I figured that accuracy was going to be an issue, as I have done this before shooting 50 B&M Super Short in the 50 B&M rifles. Accuracy was poor there as well.

So then I got to thinking about that extra magazine length I had in the Win M70 RUM rifles, and decided that a 2.5 inch .500 caliber case would work out really nicely, and be able to use any of the standard NonCons available in .500 caliber, put the Talon Tips in, and it would work through the magazine just dandy. So I made a few dummy rounds up a little while ago, and I think there is going to be yet another .500 caliber cartridge available-- let me introduce you to the;

500 B&M

2.5 Inch RUM Case 450 BBW#13 NonCon with W-Talon Tip Added COL---3.50 Inches, room to spare in the magazine. Matching 500 BBW#13 Solid works, feeds slick as can be.

I figure 19 Inch Barrel here on this one. 450 BBW#13 NonCons at 2400 fps easy, followed with the 500 BBW#13 Solids at 2250-2300 easy. More than enough, and maintain a fairly small package. Will use a smaller contour barrel than comes on the 500 MDM to reduce weight as well. Same barrel contour as the 50 B&M.

I think I will put a reamer in the works Monday!

Just FYI
Ya'll have a good weekend!

Michael

I believe that Ron has come up with the best long/short range combination of the 430gr CEB MTH HPBT bullet with the 450gr NF FPS Gen III bullet – at least in .500 caliber for use in a 3.6” magazine –readying to hit the hunting path…

Except exchange the pictured Gen II NF FPS with the Gen III NF FPS bullet..

And I really love my CEB BBW#13 bullets!!! But that 450gr NF FPS Gen III bullet just matches to nicely with my 430gr MTH HPBT bullet...