Just looked up a catalogue, noticed that the Win 70 Safari or Express now have a "negative pitch" stock. I am familiar with classic stocks, old ones on a Ferlacher, and a new one at a Win 70 Classic SuperGrade, and find them very comforting.

Also my shotguns are straight stocked, and I can think of no quicker shouldering and "pointability".

I think some stockmaker started this trend awhile ago, and to me its "too much of a good thing". Any comments and experiences?

Good shooting! H

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what is a "negative pitch"?

Negitive pitch sucks up recoil but without pitch then the stock is so stright that it will point very hight indeed...I like quite a lot of pitch on my rifles as I shoot iron sights and scope with the same stock. doesn;t bother me in the least to lift my head up 1/2" or so for a scope, but it bothers me greatly to push down on a comb to shoot irons and get the full brunt of the recoil in my rosy little cheek.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, so You also think that that "negative pith", meaning the comb RAISES to the rear of the rifle, is too much?

I still think the classic stock is best.

Any opinions please? Who has actually tried negative pitch in a big bore??

Good shooting! H

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Ahunter,
One must have the comb lower than the pitch least he would be looking at the roof..

Basic stockmaking 101: the stright stock absorbs recoil in the absence of cast off. the stright stock is strictly for scoped rifles, but no stock can be board stright, there are certain standards that must be adhered to....

My personal stocks will have enough drop for iron sight shooting with drop at the heel and comb and castoff..I have no problem with using a scope on them and EVERYONE, so far that has picked one up and used it is astounded at how well they feel and handle, THEN I tell them the truth...

I feel this is the best of both worlds as I'm not limited to the use of just a scope..The opposite will not work unless you have your iron sights very high and then it looks like a battleship on your barrel, very ugly indeed...

Atkinsonism: if it don't look good, it ain't good.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

so, in truth, how much of a change is this? the stock doesn't appear to be any "flatter" than a Remington or other Winchesters. in fact, i believe, CZ even makes a rifle with such a stock. in other words, is this a radical change from what they made before? i have been waiting for quite a while to get a left hand 375 in this rifle. i'm gonna be pretty disappointed to find out that some new thinking designer has screwed up my plans.

Sadly enough, todays factory stocks are all designed for scope use and one must force the cheek down hard to even see the iron sight and then recoil shatters meat bone and skin...

Factories do this because modern Americans have become so scope oriented that very few can even shoot iron sights and fewer even want to.....

Best cure" a #53 cabinet makers rasp, sand paper, and brand new oil finish.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Atkinson:

so, one last question. i am not especially shy of recoil, but i gotta admit, sometime i'd rather not get my face punched. and, unlike a lot of guys here, in my mind, the 375 H&H has enough kick to make it important to consider when choosing a gun. so here's the question......is there another left handed gun available whose stock is set up for the use of iron sights?

i respect your opinion about the file, but if there's one thing i use worse than i use a computer, it has got to be a wood rasp. i could make a $12 gun out of a new Winchester pretty quick. or perhaps the answer might be to give the gun to a real stockmaker and see what he can do?? got any recommendations??

Atkinson:

so, tell me, is there another left handed rifle out there somewhere in the 375 H&H??? i appreciate your idea about the file but i'm afraid i would make a $12 rifle out of my new Winchwester if i tried that approach.

i wonder, though, do you, or anyone else, know of any good stockmakers who might take on such a project? i have a feeling that such a project would be astronomically expensive.

in the end, i have a feeling that i'm just gonna have to learn to live with the jolt.

To cut a comb down and match the finish should run about $50 to $75.00, a better solution might be to refinish the stock completly...That would run about $150 with the reshape...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Gentlemen

This is not intended to show that anyone is in error here but rather to clear up some stock nomenclature. Just didn't want you to think I was trying to be a know it all by splitting hairs. But rather to clear up a little confusion (the older I get the easier I'm confused).

I think you are using the term stock pitch and drop as meaning the same thing.

If you were to draw a straight line with the bore of the rifle, the distance from that line to the comb would be drop at the comb and from the line to the heel the drop at the heel.

Pitch is the angle of the butt in relation to the bore center line. If you stood the gun up on it's butt on the floor and pushed it against the wall, the distance from the muzzle to the wall would be the pitch of the stock. If the barrel would sit flat against the wall that would be zero pitch. If the muzzle touched the wall before the rest of the barrel, that would be negative pitch. Negative pitch tends to push the comb toward your face in recoil and positive pitch tends to slide the butt down and the comb away from your face in recoil.

Craftsman, I did mean "pitch". Weatherby in earlier times claimed that his stocks with that high hump would direct away the recoil from the shooter. That�s BS, of course.

Now, with "negative pitch", which means that the top line of the stock raises to the rear, could really do direct away the part of the recoil going straight back. But as the line of top of stock still has to be lower than the bore ( or: as Ray says, how would one aim else ), there is a part of recoil turning up the muzzle, still. You can�t direct that recoil part away from the cheek.

IMHO the best recoil controlling stock is one, where the rearward part of recoil shoves back on the shoulder, and the raise of the muzzle soaks up some recoil, too. A slap on the cheek will always be recorded as unpleasent. A classic stock may just slide back there. Weatherby�s will hurt on the rearward and the upward thrust.

Just my opinion. Waiting for Yours

Good shooting Hermann

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Saeed, Your counter doesn�t work!!!

How can I have 196 posts on three!! different days?

Hermann

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Craftsman,
Thanks for straightening out the facts. Some folks were off target on "pitch."

Now isn't "positive pitch" called "pitch down" in the common usage of the term.

Your measurement method is the American one. The British describe pitch by measuring the length of pull at three points on the butt of the rifle: toe, heel, and mid pad or butt.

"Pitch down," or positive pitch also describes the motion of the rifle during recoil.

"Negative pitch" then would be pitch up, and that is what happens to the rifle under recoil.

Pitch down = positive pitch = GOOD
Negative pitch = Pitch up = NO GOOD

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RAB

Hold the rifle with the barrel horizontal, as if it were to be fired.

If the plane of the buttpad is vertical this is zero pitch.

If the plane of the buttpad is facing upward slightly, this is "pitch up" or negative pitch, or "bad pitch." Recoil will cause the rifle's stock comb to pitch up into your face.

If the plane of the buttpad is facing downward slightly, this is "pitch down" or positive pitch.

Note that those "horrible" CZ 550 Magnum humpback stocks do have a bit of pitch down, in addition to the considerable drop at the heel of the stock. I find those stocks serviceable, but a bit ugly. Butt-ugly in fact.

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RAB

the neg. pitch on the new win. from all i have read from those who have tryed it is great, i have a 416 on order let you know

aHunter,
Pitch has nothing to do with the top line or comb of the stock. It is all in the plane of the butt.

Has some marketing ploy redefined the term?

Is someone calling a stock with rise at the heel "negative pitch?"

Traditionally the term was down pitch or "pitch down." Up pitch has never been desirable and never will be. Up pitch would be the equivalent of negative pitch, whatever that means.

Is there a picture of this negatve pitch stock on the web? Did they actually use the term "negative pitch?" Forgive my ignorance, but that is a new one for me.

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RAB

Daggaron

You are correct on both counts. Pitch is the angle of the butt in relation to the bore line.

What Ahunter is describing is the angle of the comb which is normally expressed as drop at the nose, drop at the comb, and drop at the heel.

If the drop at the nose, comb, and heel were all the same the stock would be commonly referred to as a straight comb classic stock.

If the drop at the nose and comb were the same and the drop at the heel was 3/4 inch lower then it would be a monte carlo design.

If you had a monte carlo design with the drop at the nose 3/8 inch lower than the drop at the comb then you would have a Weatherby Mk V.

Craftsman,
Thank you for some more precision in terminology.

I found the Winchester catalog for 2001.
On page 26 the Model 70 Classic Safari Express is pictured and shows just what the text calls "Redesigned stock with negative drop."

This cleared up the mystery. "Negative pitch"
was a misnomer. It should have been "negative drop."

"Negative drop" makes sense. This is a good feature on a DGR. Just makes it look clunky is all. Not the classic design that is so appealing to me.

Since you are a gunsmith and know what you are talking about, are not the terms "pitch down" and "zero pitch" the preferred ones?

Would anyone ever want "pitch up" (negative pitch??? ) on a rifle or long gun of any type?

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RAB

Negative Drop:
As you see above, I quoted the corrected terminology from the catalog. The error came from the initial posting from aHunter. We all make mistakes.

The negative drop stock is reminiscient of the old Bell&Carlson stocks.

The Winchester design gives a bigger footprint and a new softer pad, both of which will make it easier on the shoulder, but a little more likely to snag on clothing in either coming to bear or dismounting.

Sure, the negative drop stock will be easier on the face, as long as the drop at the comb is right for either iron sights or scope. It can't be for both, unless you put some M-16 sights on that DGR. We all get by with compromises.

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 12-12-2001).]

I haven't seen the new Winchester DGR stocks, but I do remember the old Bell and Carlson stocks with a negative angle to the comb. I agree it appears you would have to have sights that are really tall.

The only time I've seen a stock with a down pitch is when some amatuer cut the stock for a kick pad, then complained about it giving him a George Foreman.

I think everyone is on the same sheet of music here. The nomeclature just got jumbled up a bit.

You are right. I am responsible for posting wrong in the first place. But it seems we needed a good time to clear this up. For me, I�ve learnt a lot. And hardly will buy such a stock.

Good shooting! H

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Craftsman,
You are correct but isn't that exactly what we were discussing??? I don't think that needs clarification..The more pitch you have the lower the heel and comb and visa versa, just like a seesaw....you have to have drop at the heel and comb to shoot iron sights comfortably least the comb smacks the face, thus you have more pitch...no confusion on this side of the fence.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Then again I'm refering to classic or English guns and not a MOnte Carlo..If one wants to know the pitch of a rifle he stands the top line of the butt stock against the wall and measures the distance from the center bore (at end of the barrel) to the wall...My guns normally have about 1.5"...with a smidgeon of cast Off..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Gosh darn it Ray! Pitch has nothing to do with the drop of the stock! Pitch is all in the angle of the butt pad's primary plane relative to the bore line! Are you trying to prolong the confusion? Is this a joke? It is certainly funny.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

Ray,

Pitch has absolutely NOTHING to do with the drop of the stock.

Pitch is the ANGLE of the BUTT in relation to the bore line.

You are using pitch and drop together. They are not the same.

Dog Gone It ! I know you understand it, you're just not saying it right.

OK, guess ya'll got me confused in the way the question was asked, since I was thinking on a different level in that the more distance from the wall to the center line of the muzzle would make more drop at the heel and comb if you reversed them and held the barrel even to the wall...I am OK now I just took two aspirin and a short nap and came back and reread all the stuff. I am now only vaguely confused and surrender to the wiser gentlemen of the board.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray

Considering previous posts I think you're hearing may be almost as bad as mine.

Thats why I never did think you were confused, we were just not talking loud enough.

Craftsman,
Thats what my wife and kids say all the time...

My 9 year old grandson was talking to grandma and she said go ask Papa and he came back and she said "well what did Papa say?' He looked up at her with that big grin and said " Papa said what he always sez, what? what? what? what? what?"

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Huh?

That means your right I can't hear, blew out the drums years ago...I say what? a lot.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray

I was joking. Every time my wife talks about me being nearly deaf I always say Huh? Or What? Just to aggravate her.

I've shot too many guns over the years myself. Back when I started it wasn't considered manly to put something over your ears when shooting, at least in Texas anyway.

But I would rather have the experiences hunting and shooting I had and suffer bad hearing than have perfect hearing and missed out on all those wonderful times.

what?

Didn't know what else to say

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

What'sa "Boreline"??

Nickudu

Visualize a line drawn throught the center or your barrel and extending out the rear.

Ray, et al __

Nice to know you're just like the rest of us. I was beginning to think that you were some variety of a Cray super-computer hooked into this site for the purpose of giving us mud-bellys the rightful way of firearms. I don't comment thusly often, but that's sign of respect.

With a sorry case if tinitus, and a damaged right ear (courtesy of Elmer and his dangfoodled 44 Magnum), I also say "huh?" a lot. My wife accuses me of having "selective hearing". Mebbe so. It does have it's advantages. Hmmm.

Good shooting.

Robert

Along the lines of tinitus, the first 'smith I knew told me he got his first 357 mag in the early 1950's, and it was uncool to use ear protection, and almost unable to locate anyway. So he would go to the Red River with a couple hundred rounds of wide open reloads every weekend. When I asked him how long it took for his ears to stop ringing he grinned and replied; " It hasn't stopped!"
Good luck and good shooting