InFoamMation

13 July 2002, 14:29

Nickudu

InFoamMation

How'bout some harmless fun? At an upstate New York farm I hunt, they discarded the Styro-Foam from a bunch of old float docks at a nearby lake. One at a time, I positioned a section, roughly 2'x12'x8" thick, with the end squarely facing my shooting table and painted on it a 3" Bull with a magic marker. I had solids and softs ready in three calibers, .375 H&H (270 XLC, 300 Hornady & Barnes Solids), .416 Rem.(400 XLC, 400 Hornady & Barnes Solids), and .505 Gibbs (Molycoated 570 X and 600 Barnes S.S.)
A single shot of each was fired per Styro-Foam section. No exits resulted out the opposite end. Two made it to the 10 foot mark. Two exited out the side at the 6 1/2' mark. One made it to the 7' mark. One blew off the entire end of the styro-foam section at the 7' mark. Two bullets did not make it half way through. The test was not repeated, as I was about shot myself, by then.
Care to venture a guess which bullets did what?

13 July 2002, 15:01

Bakes

OK I'll have a shot in the dark!

The .505 bullets under half way.
.416 solids to the 10' mark.
.416 X blew the end off at 7'
.375 solids out the side.
.375 X made it to 7'

How'd I do Nick?

Bakes

13 July 2002, 15:13

Nickudu

Better than I would have, Bakes. I'm still trying to make sense of it. You got some right though. Let's see what happens. I'm waiting for Mike375 to take a shot at this. [Wink]

13 July 2002, 15:33

Ku-dude

Nickudu,

I'll take a shot at it:

10' 375-300gr Barnes solid & 416-400gr Barnes
7'Straight-416-Hornaday solid
6.5'Out Side-375-300gr Horn Solid & 505-Barnes SS
7' Blew off end-416-400 X
-6' 375-270X & 505-570 X

Analysis:

Barnes solids should penetrate straight and further than Hornaday

505 X & 505 S.S. would not penetrate well as the 375 and 416 solids. One went out the side, and the other ended up short with the 375 270 X

Hornaday solids should penetrate well. The 416 has similar B.C. as 375, but starts out with more energy. The 375 solid went out the side.

The 416 X would penetrate and be horribly destructive hence it blew the end off. Ku-dude

13 July 2002, 15:44

Nickudu

What a pisser. I can't fault your logic but you actually guessed right on only one bullet! [Big Grin]

Again, this is just for fun and I don't think I would have done much better. Honestly, I think I would have said about what Bakes said.

13 July 2002, 22:10

Will

First of all, random, single event, experiments violate my experimental sensibilities (translation: if I'm wrong, it's not my fault).

In my experience, Barnes solids do not penetrate well. How this translates to foam, I don't know. Blowing out the back half would most likely be a result of high energy, low penetrating bullet sending a shock wave through the foam, at a frequency matching the natural frequency of the foam (whatebvr that may be.)

In other words, here's my WAG.

505 X - < 6'
505 Barnes - blew the end off
416 XLC ~ 10'
416 Barnes ~ 7'
416 Hornady solid - out the side at 6 1/2'
375 XLC ~ 10'
375 Barnes < 6'
375 Hornady solid - out the side at 6 1/2'

I can't believe I'm setting myself up for this!

Will

13 July 2002, 23:53

Nickudu

Hey Will,
In this highly scientific test scenario, it seems the more you know the worse you'll do! [Big Grin]

You guessed 0 correct, my friend. Don't get too upset right now though, as they'll be a much better opportunity to do so when I post the results tonight (I've a family reunion today).

I think people may be afraid to try? Please don't be so serious. Take a shot at it, just for fun! [Smile]

14 July 2002, 01:43

Will

I HOPE MORE PEOPLE TRY. THEY CAN'T DO WORSE THAN ZERO CORRECT!!!!

14 July 2002, 04:57

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
How'bout some harmless fun?

I had solids and softs ready in three calibers, .375 H&H (270 XLC, 300 Hornady & Barnes Solids), .416 Rem.(400 XLC, 400 Hornady & Barnes Solids), and .505 Gibbs (Molycoated 570 X and 600 Barnes S.S.)
A single shot of each was fired per Styro-Foam section. No exits resulted out the opposite end. Two made it to the 10 foot mark. Two exited out the side at the 6 1/2' mark. One made it to the 7' mark. One blew off the entire end of the styro-foam section at the 7' mark. Two bullets did not make it half way through.

SOLIDS

The 375 Barnes solids to 10'

The 375 Hornady solid to 7'

The 416 Barnes soild to 10'

The 416 Hornady solid 6.5'

The 505 Gibbs Solid out the side at 6.5'

XLCs

The 375 XLC 1/2 way
The 416 XLC blew off the end at 7'

The 505 XLC 1/2 way

Since I don't use the X bullets I have no idea about them and I'm only guessing on all since I have never shot into Styro-foam with any bullet! [Confused]

14 July 2002, 06:01

Nickudu

Hey Mac ... see what I mean? Don't look now but your experience is showing. [Big Grin]

You got one right and just missed on two others (right caliber / wrong bullet). You're far too knowledgable to be competitive in this event but thank you for having the courage to enter! [Smile]

DaggaRon, Mike375, RobinGunbuilder ... let's do it! Hey Mitch ... snap to it man ... what's your guess?

14 July 2002, 10:59

RIP

Just because you are such a swell guy, here is my less-than-SWAG, which may just be wishful, or just to stir the pot. This assumes the Hornady solids are the new bronze encapsulated ones, which I have no experience with. I wish they had just left them as the old steel jacketed:

270 XLC ........... <6'
300 Hornady Solid .... 6-1/2' side exit
300 Barnes Solid ..... 7'

400 XLC .............. <6'
400 Hornady Solid .... 6-1/2' side exit
400 Barnes solid ..... 10'

570 moly X ........... 7' exploded end of block
600 Barnes Solid ..... 10'

I will await your observations and ponder them. The above is just for fun. But we all know the 505 Gibbs is El Supremo, and if your test did not show this, then it must have been due to an unrepresentative, small sample size and random error in the test data, or tractor beams applied by space aliens on the bullets in flight.

Comparing my answers to those above, I know I didn't do too well, but what the heck. [Big Grin]

[ 07-14-2002, 02:06: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

14 July 2002, 13:30

Will

In the mean time, I have decided all my guesses, i.e. answers, are indeed correct, and Nickudu is actually Mondele, or possibly Todd E, and a lying sack of ...

Will

14 July 2002, 14:15

Nickudu

DaggaRon,
Excellent! You got three correct answers and came close on one other (right caliber/ wrong bullet).
Someone may start to zero in a bit now.

Will,
Mondele is, admittedly, my idol but, alas, I am not he. Todd E is O.K. in my book but, should he fail to change is handle and start anew, I shall refer to him from now on as RE-Todd E.

14 July 2002, 14:19

<Phil R>

I sure wish that you had included a Garrett 540gr Hammerhead from your trusty .45/70. We would all have gotten one right for sure!

14 July 2002, 14:21

Nickudu

DaggaRon,
The Hornady Solids are of the original type and are molycoated, which I neglected to mention. Thanks for bringing this out.

14 July 2002, 15:50

RIP

Well let's blame the side exits on velocity then.

270 X ..................... 6.5' side exit
300 HS .................... 6.5' side exit
300 BS .................... 7'

400 X ..................... <6'
400 HS .................... 10'
400 BS .................... 10'

570 X ..................... <6'
600 BS .................... 7' Exploded end of block

[Confused]

14 July 2002, 16:22

Nickudu

10' of penetration - .375/300* Hornady .416/400* Hornady

7' of penetration - .505/600* Barnes Solid

Blew off end at 7' - .505/570 X

Exited out side at 6.5' - .375/300 Barnes Solid .416/400 Barnes Solid

Less than 6' - .375/270 XLC, .416/400 XLC

*Molycoated

Meaningless results? Perhaps, but it does appear that, assuming the Barnes Solids in .375 and .416 had not exited out the side at the 7' mark, they would certainly have penetrated further. How much further, we can only guess. Thus, all the .375/.416 solids would have surpassed the expanding bullets by a good margin. No big surprise there, I suppose. I suspect the .505/570 X did somewhat better than the lighter, smaller, faster softs due to the sheer mass of the petals, slowing the rate of expansion, allowing for increased
penetration and inferring a severe wound via its' blowing off the end of the foam panel. I can't see any further conclusions we can draw from this and reiterate that it was all just for fun. [Smile]

[ 07-15-2002, 01:44: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

14 July 2002, 16:53

RIP

Finally, the suspense has ended.

A tiny sample to be sure, one shot each, but an interesting coincidence:

Both of the old Hornady steel FMJ's used were the best straight line penetrators. Hmmm ...

14 July 2002, 17:09

Nickudu

Perhaps certain nose configurations are better than others in certain mediums? I may do this again next chance I get. Maybe I can get the Barnes solids to stay inside and record the actual depth of penetration. Another thing I'm wondering is if molycoated solids may offer advantages in regard to penetration(?).

15 July 2002, 05:29

MacD37

do it Nick, I'm waiting! [Cool]

15 July 2002, 06:16

Nickudu

DaggaRon said: "Both of the old Hornady steel FMJ's used were the best straight line penetrators. Hmmm ..."

Once again, Ron, you've got me thinking ... These foam sections were standing "on edge" at firing, so the actual sight object was 8" wide and 24" high, with the 3" dot in the middle. While the Barnes solids did exit out the side at the 7' mark, they may have actually altered course no more,or possibly even less than the Hornadys, which were recovered very close to the top of the styro-foam block at the 10' mark. Follow? I think next time I'll position the blocks in the horizontal position for the Barnes, so as to better contain them and get a penetration reading. If anyone wants to send a favorite bullet, I'd be happy to load it up and let it join in the fun! I expect to be back up there around the 25th and there are still lots of foam blocks not shot to hell. [Wink]

15 July 2002, 06:29

BIG SAM

NICKUDU,

I am interested in hearing about your .505 GIBBS. Please give the details of the gun and load info, such as products and where avail. The more info the better.

Thank you for your time.

SAM

eclemmons@hotmail.com

15 July 2002, 07:00

Nickudu

Big Sam,
Here is the link to my data, which has not changed except that I am now using Hornbeber brass, available from Huntingtons (HDS).
http://www.accuratereloading.com/505gibbs.html

My .505 was custom built for me in South Africa.
A CZ-550 action, Truvelo barrel with integral lug, a quarter rib with one fixed and two folding leafs and Masterpiece front sight with a flip-up night sight. #5 Turkish walnut with wrap around checkering, some tasteful engraving on bolt handle and sleeve, and a super fine buffalo head done in silver, on the floorplate.
www.bigbores.com

15 July 2002, 07:02

<mikeh416Rigby>

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
DaggaRon said: "Both of the old Hornady steel FMJ's used were the best straight line penetrators. Hmmm ..."

Once again, Ron, you've got me thinking ... These foam sections were standing "on edge" at firing, so the actual sight object was 8" wide and 24" high, with the 3" dot in the middle. While the Barnes solids did exit out the side at the 7' mark, they may have actually altered course no more,or possibly even less than the Hornadys, which were recovered very close to the top of the styro-foam block at the 10' mark. Follow? I think next time I'll position the blocks in the horizontal position for the Barnes, so as to better contain them and get a penetration reading. If anyone wants to send a favorite bullet, I'd be happy to load it up and let it join in the fun! I expect to be back up there around the 25th and there are still lots of foam blocks not shot to hell.

Just for shits and giggles, how about the 375 Nosler Ballistic Tip that we're so curious about?

15 July 2002, 07:16

Nickudu

MikeH375,
I have my doubts that a ballistic tip will make it through the Magic Marker sighting dot! [Big Grin]

15 July 2002, 09:02

Atkinson

I'm glad to hear that about the Hornadys, as I have always had such good luck with them and I just happen to have about a dozen boxes of them on hand from days gone by..

I have the old ones and not the new "Encapsulated", which are basically untested so far. I have also had good luck with the old 416 Hornady S.P.'s and I have plenty of them...

Wish you would try the GS Flat nose, as they sure do seem to be the best of the best in solids......

15 July 2002, 09:30

<Norbert>

I donï¿½t know exactly what styrofoam is. But if it is foam from polystyrol (Styropor), it will melt on impact. Than you may observe mechanics of penetration nearly the same as I am describing in my article on the SuperPenetrator. There it is also mentioned that a Hornadyï¿½s nose is better than the hemispherical noses of most monolithics. (Barnes etc). Hornadys old and new style are equal in this respect.
SuperPenetrator

15 July 2002, 09:57

BIG SAM

NICK,

Thank you sir. That BUFF has the most "Character" of any that I have ever seen!

The information provided was just what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

SAM

15 July 2002, 10:00

Nickudu

Ray,
I'd be glad to try the GS if someone would send me one. Another thing about the Hornady is that the parallel sides are shorter than on the monolithics ... less drag?? I have thought for a long time that molycoating has an effect on penetration.

Norbert,
It is very good to hear from you but please keep in mind that I never said this "fun" was at all scientific. The foam blocks were available so I used them and that's all.
The properties of Styro-Foam are taylored to the intended application. Some types, used in packaging can be broken by a child, while other types are very dense, noticibly heavier and often, very strong, especially when encased in a shell of some kind, such as in surf boards, boats and other marine/industrial applications. The good thing about it as a medium is the consistancy of the stuff, per type.

15 July 2002, 10:21

Nickudu

Big Sam,
Happy to be of help, my friend. Let us know what you're up to, when you can. [Smile]

18 July 2002, 06:16

<deranged-havoc-aficionado>

Any chance you can do a 50 cal BMG armor piercing, then tracer, then incendiary? You have lots of this styrofoam?

18 July 2002, 18:55

<mikeh416Rigby>

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
MikeH375,
I have my doubts that a ballistic tip will make it through the Magic Marker sighting dot!

I wouldn't be too quick to judge them. Last weekend I shot a meadow grizzly (groundhog) with one in my back yard, and all that was left was a furry donut. The range was about 27 yards. [Big Grin]

19 July 2002, 03:35

Nickudu

I've used them since day one, Mike, in their proper place. Very nice, very accurate but not at all a candidate for high penetration.

Your Words: "Last weekend I shot a meadow grizzly (groundhog) with one in my back yard, and all that was left was a furry donut. The range was about 27 yards."