Potentially Useful Leupold FireDot Feature

07 April 2018, 02:45

I'll be taking a Kimber Caprivi .375 H&H to Zimbabwe in June and it wears a Leupold Mark 6 2-12x scope with their FireDot LR Duplex reticle. This is a traditional duplex reticle with two additional "dots" on the inferior vertical reticle. The usual recommendation is to zero the rifle for 200 yards and the dots will be about right at 300 and 400 yards at maximum magnification. Not with a .375!

I tracked down the specs, and with the 2-12 Leupold, the first dot is 2.2 MOA below the center at 12x and the second is 4.8 MOA below the center at 12x. However, with magnification set at 10x, the first dot is at 2.6 MOA and the second is at 5.8 MOA. Assuming a 100 yard zero with 300 grain bullets, that is perfect at 200 yards and just slightly high at 300 yards (calculated 300 yard drop is 6.2 MOA).

I don't anticipate needing to use this, but if a longer range shot presents where I'd have time to get in a good position and dial the scope, it is useful.

For the record, at 2x magnification the first dot is 13 MOA down and the second is 29!

07 April 2018, 07:04

Fjold

What load for the 375 H&H?

In my gun, using the 300 grain TSX at 2500 fps, 2" high at 100 yards is 10" low at 300 yards.

If I set my zero 2" high at 100 yards, the wide section of the duplex (4" below the crosshairs at 100 yards,) puts me almost exactly on zero at 300 yards.

08 April 2018, 11:20

sambarman338

Sorry England, but I would not take that scope to Africa.

Though the shot fall might be adjusted to some compromise, the stuff you mention could turn into a nightmare if you forget what power you on. Add to that the fragility of illumination (last I heard, Leupold scopes were guaranteed for life but only two years for the electrics), the questionable mechanics of high-multiple variables and the vulnerability of larger objectives.

Unless you're shooting big cats at night, I would look for a Leupold Compact 2.5x or a well-kept old reticle-movement Zeiss/Hensoldt, Nickel or Kahles (fixed or small variable), with a heavy reticle like the default No. 1. Shooting distances in Africa have been generally short, according to Pondoro at least, so 2.5x should be quite enough for big game. Considering trophy-fee provisions, I doubt you'll take too many shots at 400 yards.

09 April 2018, 06:39

Virginia Creeper

A front focal plan scope will always show the same size image, where the same size is a constant measure of the crosshairs and dots no matter what the power.
After one learns of these scopes, it is hard to return to the standard American scope where the crosshairs do not change size with the change of scope magnification power.
As for the electric feature, personally, I always turn it off. Best to learn to shoot without it cause at some point it will fail. And Murhphy's law is....
Sincerely,

10 April 2018, 05:07

Live Oak

The red dot will really draw your eye to the center if it is getting toward sundown! For Plains game 3-6 power is really all you need but it is nice to have more if you are picking a spot. Been banging two Loopies with firedots for years, no worries. 12 to sight in but practice at 4-6 and you are set.

16 April 2018, 08:01

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by Live Oak:
The red dot will really draw your eye to the center if it is getting toward sundown! For Plains game 3-6 power is really all you need but it is nice to have more if you are picking a spot. Been banging two Loopies with firedots for years, no worries...

Don't put the moz on it, Live Oak. And change the batteries every year whether they need it on not.

I was talking to a guy at my book launch on Saturday who loves the Leupold VX-R; said it gets him on to targets so quick he leaves it on all day.

This interested me because finding or guessing the central aiming point has never occurred as a problem during the hours I hunt.

However, this fella then told me about the last stag he shot. It was a whopper, with coronets so big he could hardly get his hands to touch around them. Trouble was, when he got up to it, he realised it was still in velvet.

There's a lesson there I don't think he was aware of: if you hunt only when you can see the game and surroundings properly, but still need a fraction more time to get on target, you might assess the animal better and avoiding tragedies like that ... and worse.

17 April 2018, 00:32

JCS271

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
quote:
Originally posted by Live Oak:
The red dot will really draw your eye to the center if it is getting toward sundown! For Plains game 3-6 power is really all you need but it is nice to have more if you are picking a spot. Been banging two Loopies with firedots for years, no worries...

Don't put the moz on it, Live Oak. And change the batteries every year whether they need it on not.

I was talking to a guy at my book launch on Saturday who loves the Leupold VX-R; said it gets him on to targets so quick he leaves it on all day.

This interested me because finding or guessing the central aiming point has never occurred as a problem during the hours I hunt.

However, this fella then told me about the last stag he shot. It was a whopper, with coronets so big he could hardly get his hands to touch around them. Trouble was, when he got up to it, he realised it was still in velvet.

There's a lesson there I don't think he was aware of: if you hunt only when you can see the game and surroundings properly, but still need a fraction more time to get on target, you might assess the animal better and avoiding tragedies like that ... and worse.

I have run VXR,VX6 and Delta Point Pro firedots for YEARS on all of my hunting rifles with zero issues. They are always on. Battery life is about 7months on my every day carry pistol and literally several years on my rifles (remember they go to sleep after 5 minutes of inactivity). Fast target acquisition in the woods or up close is so much better than plain crosshairs it is not even a comparison. I will never buy another non illuminated scope. Here is a story I posted last year that perfectly illustrates the utility of illumination......

http://www.predatormastersforu...umber=3002635&page=1

19 April 2018, 19:49

sambarman338

Glad to hear you've had such a good run, JCS, and are not the least superstitious. Leupold's two-year light warranty would seem reasonably generous, were it not that the rest of the scope gets lifetime coverage.

21 April 2018, 19:37

JCS271

Yes I have had great success with the Leupolds as have every one I know that owns one. Another important thing to remember is that even if your battery dies (no excuse, change every season) or there is a total electronics failure you STILL have a crystal clear leupold scope with the crosshair style of your choice that works like every other scope in the gun safe. It is a win, win!

22 April 2018, 01:56

drongo

quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
quote:
Originally posted by Live Oak:
The red dot will really draw your eye to the center if it is getting toward sundown! For Plains game 3-6 power is really all you need but it is nice to have more if you are picking a spot. Been banging two Loopies with firedots for years, no worries...

Don't put the moz on it, Live Oak. And change the batteries every year whether they need it on not.

I was talking to a guy at my book launch on Saturday who loves the Leupold VX-R; said it gets him on to targets so quick he leaves it on all day.

This interested me because finding or guessing the central aiming point has never occurred as a problem during the hours I hunt.

However, this fella then told me about the last stag he shot. It was a whopper, with coronets so big he could hardly get his hands to touch around them. Trouble was, when he got up to it, he realised it was still in velvet.

There's a lesson there I don't think he was aware of: if you hunt only when you can see the game and surroundings properly, but still need a fraction more time to get on target, you might assess the animal better and avoiding tragedies like that ... and worse.

I have run VXR,VX6 and Delta Point Pro firedots for YEARS on all of my hunting rifles with zero issues. They are always on. Battery life is about 7months on my every day carry pistol and literally several years on my rifles (remember they go to sleep after 5 minutes of inactivity). Fast target acquisition in the woods or up close is so much better than plain crosshairs it is not even a comparison. I will never buy another non illuminated scope. Here is a story I posted last year that perfectly illustrates the utility of illumination......

http://www.predatormastersforu...umber=3002635&page=1

My .375 H&H wears a Trijicon 1x4. A good and fast combination.

23 April 2018, 04:45

JCS271

[My .375 H&H wears a Trijicon 1x4. A good and fast combination.[/QUOTE]

So does my .416. Perfect rig for buffalo!

05 May 2018, 19:40

Atkinson

I'd suggest a 2.5X or 3X fixed on a buffalo rifle, A long shot on a buffalo is 200 yards and rare indeed, more likely 25 to 50 yards..A large scope that extends beyond the front ring, will move off zero much of the time..sometimes just a bit but sometimes a lot..IMO your way over scoped for Buff hunting or hunting in general short of varmints.

If one must have more X's and a variable then the 2x7x28 or even a 2.5x8 seems to work for a lot of folks.

Buffalo are pretty big, magnification is not needed IMO..

08 May 2018, 17:46

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by drongo:

...I have run VXR,VX6 and Delta Point Pro firedots for YEARS on all of my hunting rifles with zero issues. They are always on. Battery life is about 7months on my every day carry pistol and literally several years on my rifles (remember they go to sleep after 5 minutes of inactivity). Fast target acquisition in the woods or up close is so much better than plain crosshairs it is not even a comparison. I will never buy another non illuminated scope...

Yes, drongo, I am coming to see new and unbelievable power can come from illumination but that it sets the user up for a wailing and gnashing of teeth when it finally lets him down - and that it crosses the borders of fair chase.

Where does fair chase end? Hard to say but if we say electrics are kosher, can there be any limit?

09 May 2018, 02:14

JCS271

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by drongo:

Yes, drongo, I am coming to see new and unbelievable power can come from illumination but that it sets the user up for a wailing and gnashing of teeth when it finally lets him down - and that it crosses the borders of fair chase.

Where does fair chase end? Hard to say but if we say electrics are kosher, can there be any limit?

I don't really anticipate any "wailing or gnashing of teeth" and I doubt that you do either. If the illumination fails as all things mechanical ultimately do, then I will simply use it as a conventional scope until I can get it repaired or replaced. As to your concerns of it crossing the borders of fair chase, I would love to hear that argument. It is not a laser, or anything that gives an unfair advantage. It is simply a slight illumination of the center of the crosshairs in a conventional scope which allows people (older people) to clearly see where they are positioning the black crosshairs on a black animal prior to pulling the trigger. It is and always will be MY responsibility to have the rifle pointed at the appropriate spot prior to firing. As I pointed out above, all it does is allow for those with less than perfect eyesight to make the best possible shot to ensure a humane kill which is certainly the noblest of goals to a hunter.

P.S. If you really want to talk about fair chase issues there are many things to discuss (like a PH pointing a green laser at the forehead of an elephant so that the obviously unskilled youthful hunter can make a frontal brain shot) but I will posit that illuminated reticles are not going to make the list!

09 May 2018, 11:11

sambarman338

As I've said before, JCS, these are matters that could (and do) fill a chapter.

The matter of sight failure is analogous with why semi-autos are traditionally considered unreliable (though, factually, they should not be).

My thoughts on sportsmanship cover all sorts of modern cheats but look for clear lines in the sand we might draw to give the critters a fair chance. Eschewing electric hunting aids would be a simple principle to adopt.

10 May 2018, 00:35

JCS271

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
My thoughts on sportsmanship cover all sorts of modern cheats but look for clear lines in the sand we might draw to give the critters a fair chance. Eschewing electric hunting aids would be a simple principle to adopt.

I thought this conversation was about your original comment on the "fragility" of illuminated reticles. Ok, now I get that its about fair chase. Then I would propose that a potentially easier line to draw (and slope to slide down) would be to forbid the use of modern telescopic sights and modern rifles shooting "high power" cartridges. I think we could even articulate the need to regulate the use of vehicles including aircraft, that transport us to, or in the field. The list is long if the goal is the (impossible to define) desire to "give critters a fair chance". My list is much shorter since my goal is simply to use commonly available equipment to make a precise shot resulting in a clean and humane kill. Good hunting, JCS

10 May 2018, 07:47

JTEX

I think that scope is a fantastic choice. 2x is plenty low enough and 12x could come in very handy with a great trophy a ways out there in shadow.

These low power folks are just handicapping themselves needlessly.

Ethics, fair chase? Really?

Jeeze this stuff is getting ridiculous.

I personally think it is much more ethical to make sure your shot is as good as possible to kill as cleanly as possible.....and I will take every advantage available to do so......but that's just me.

.

10 May 2018, 16:29

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:
[Q... As to your concerns of it crossing the borders of fair chase, I would love to hear that argument...

...P.S. If you really want to talk about fair chase issues there are many things to discuss (like a PH pointing a green laser at the forehead of an elephant so that the obviously unskilled youthful hunter can make a frontal brain shot) but I will posit that illuminated reticles are not going to make the list!

Well, JCS, you said you'd love to hear that argument, but now criticise me for actually giving even a quick summation of it.

Believe me, I'd love to explain it in full but, while I don't expect you to ever read my book, I don't want to spoil it for those who do.

As to your point about a PH pointing lasers at elephants, that fits right in with my rule-of-thumb ethic on hunting in a switched-on age. Instead of constructing some sort of Mitzvot, keep it simple: don't hunt game from vehicles and don't use electrical aids to get it.

Making rules about modern rifles (except that calibres should be adequate) would be a can of worms, and animals have evolved in wariness over the centuries, if not physical appearance. Telescopic sights have been used at least since Isaac Newton, so it's a bit late to put that one back in the bottle. And, as you have asserted, seeing the target better should be a good thing. Illuminated scopes, if not set perfectly, may actually cause your pupil to contract, harming your vision of the target in a way a #1 reticle will never do. But where is that reticle pointing, you ask? Well, if image-movement has done nothing else, it has answered that question - at the scope's centre!

As to making kills clean as possible, JTEX, farm-authorised 'hunters' around these parts find spotlights very good for taking deer humanely - but that's not me.

It is a simple rule I suggest, and even Blind Freddy might experience hazy illumination when it is broken.

10 May 2018, 17:46

dgr416

Where I live at hunting in the mountain laurel thickets for black bears requires either 50 mm scopes or a lighted cross hair .The Nikon scopes have bronze colored crosshairs and I can see them better than Leopold .Most shots are taken right before dark and you better make it good .It gets dark in the laurel thickets an hour and a half before dark .I have Been looking for a scope with a lighted cross hair because on a black bear right before dark you can't see a regular duplex.I am all for things that make a better shot .I have cadracks and it makes it even harder .In Alaska we couldn't use electronic sites of any kind so I used 50 mm scopes .I also can't shoot good with scopes too low powered .I used a 1x3 weaver yesterday and it's a 50-yard scope to me and does not bring in enough light to hunt in the laurel thickets here .I shot an hour before dark and couldn't see the target with the 1x3x20 scope .I switched to a 3x9 x50 and it was way better.I like to practice before dark because that's when I will be shooting a bear .I think that 2x12 is awesome didn't know what the objective was .In Alaska we could shoot at night with natural light over the snow and the 3.5x10 x50 Nikon monarch worked awesome .I didn't shoot a by game but I did target practice at night with the scope in the snow on full moons it worked awesome.It's what ever works best for you that works .If the shoe fits wear it if it does not it hurts your feet !

10 May 2018, 19:12

sambarman338

There is at least one brand of scope that provides some lighting to the reticle without batteries, dgr. I can't see a problem with that unless you have to shine a light in there beforehand. Then, I guess you could hold it up against a Coleman (white-gasoline) lamp

Have you had your cataracts operated on or got glasses to help your sight?

10 May 2018, 20:35

dgr416

It's too early to operate on them.They are at about 40 percent .
My doctor says to wait because I am 55 and they will come back again
And second time putting in lens is terrible .That happened to my dad had his done at 53 and they lasted 20 years now it's a major chance changing them second time of messing up his eye at 78 .
I can't drive at night which really sucks hunting I have to get out of the woods before dark .
I looked at about 50 different scopes and the Nikon 50 mm scopes helped me the best hunting in low light .
I can't even use a 40 mm scope any more too dim ! I do really good with my
3.5x10 x50 Nikon but my.long.range shooting above 200 yards suffers too so I am switching
To a 4x16x50 mm Nikon monarch .I didn't get to take a Boone and crocket buck last year because of 10 power.
It really sucks getting old .I shot my Elmer Keith rifle yesterday with a 3x9x50 and it was leaps and bounds above the old 3x9 redfield widefield that was on it .It's a 250 yard rifle again .I had to use that scope because of the Enfield action scope mounts required a very long scope body .I.learned in Alaska to carry two rifles one long range 200-700 yards 338-378 and 416 rem mag for point blank to 200 yards .I had them on four wheeler or Argo so it made it nice .I have blown many scopes apart so I.Only use ones that work good .My light 416 tore up three Burris posilock scopes first shot .They were my cousins he wanted to see how good they were .He sent them all back .I put my Nikon scopes through hell and back 12 years in Alaska .I.Guess when scopes first came out they were leaps and bounds above iron sites but they broke easy .I just reread Elmer Keith's book big Game rifles and cartridges in 1936 he loved the huge zeiss scopes of the day but they were too expensive for him.so he used noske scopes .We have come a long way on scopes .Alaska and here in mountains really showed me how different scopes work .What ever scope works best and is most dependable is the one to use .I even had backup scopes in Alaska I carried that could be popped right on and were close enough to hunt with .

10 May 2018, 20:58

swampshooter

I used a Leupold 1-4x variable on my 375 when I hunted Africa and was very happy with its performance. A straight 2 1/2X would be a more rugged scope.

10 May 2018, 23:13

Atkinson

The older I get and the more Ive hunted, the less I like gadgets, lasers, red dots even varibles..all these things are more prone to failure..What is wrong with todays hunters, a cross hair and a fixed power is ALL one needs and all that is desirable..All of you will come to that decision at some point, just trying to wake you up before you spend all your monies on con jobs..Save the money for ammo and practice and hunting..Too many have so much money tied up in gimmics and guns they cannot afford a good hunt, but if it blows ones skirt up then more power to you..I have friends that love new toys and just talk hunting, not doing it..The land of the closet Queens..

11 May 2018, 06:30

JCS271

Ray, I totally agree with you. I'm closing in on 60 and I'm really reverting back to my old reliable gear from rifles to backpacks. I'm still shooting my old Ruger 77 30-06 with a Leupold M8 - 6 fixed power scope. It's taken more animals than all the rest of them combined and is arguably as close as it gets to a perfect all around last forever type rifle. But hey what's the fun of coming on a hunting forum unless you can argue about gear!

PS I've spent my whole life hunting with archery gear and 14 years ago I sold everything except my Longbow and have never looked back, life is good!

11 May 2018, 09:36

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by dgr416:
It's too early to operate on them.They are at about 40 percent .
My doctor says to wait because I am 55 and they will come back again
And second time putting in lens is terrible .That happened to my dad had his done at 53 and they lasted 20 years now it's a major chance changing them second time of messing up his eye at 78 .
I can't drive at night which really sucks hunting I have to get out of the woods before dark .
I looked at about 50 different scopes and the Nikon 50 mm scopes helped me the best hunting in low light .
I can't even use a 40 mm scope any more too dim ! I do really good with my
3.5x10 x50 Nikon but my.long.range shooting above 200 yards suffers too so I am switching
To a 4x16x50 mm Nikon monarch .I didn't get to take a Boone and crocket buck last year because of 10 power.
It really sucks getting old .I shot my Elmer Keith rifle yesterday with a 3x9x50 and it was leaps and bounds above the old 3x9 redfield widefield that was on it .It's a 250 yard rifle again .I had to use that scope because of the Enfield action scope mounts required a very long scope body .I.learned in Alaska to carry two rifles one long range 200-700 yards 338-378 and 416 rem mag for point blank to 200 yards .I had them on four wheeler or Argo so it made it nice .I have blown many scopes apart so I.Only use ones that work good .My light 416 tore up three Burris posilock scopes first shot .They were my cousins he wanted to see how good they were .He sent them all back .I put my Nikon scopes through hell and back 12 years in Alaska .I.Guess when scopes first came out they were leaps and bounds above iron sites but they broke easy .I just reread Elmer Keith's book big Game rifles and cartridges in 1936 he loved the huge zeiss scopes of the day but they were too expensive for him.so he used noske scopes .We have come a long way on scopes .Alaska and here in mountains really showed me how different scopes work .What ever scope works best and is most dependable is the one to use .I even had backup scopes in Alaska I carried that could be popped right on and were close enough to hunt with .

Thanks DGR,
Since you're one of the good guys, with legitimate health issues, my philosophy gives you a special dispensation

. I see no problem in people with disabilities using enhanced technology like illumination, just as I don't deny farmers, their friends and pest controllers justification in using spotlights to shoot vermin.

Your experience with Posi-Lock adds to the frisson. Must say, I thought their button looked a bit small to really anchor a brass erector tube in a heavy kicker; and must now add your testimony to my 'Epilogue'.

PM me your address and I'll send you a copy of the book when I update the update.

11 May 2018, 21:34

Atkinson

JTex,
Being a poor soul that has handicapped himself in the Buffalo bush for many years, I have never known it!! I can't imagine a 12X scope on buffalo..in the shade at long range, I can't imagine a PH allowing one to take such a shot, it seems to me its one of those "what ifs, too justify it use", All I can say is I believe the scope is too large and has too much leverage sticking out the front ring and only a slight bump will knock such a scope out of zero to what ever amount...Just don't agree with your post, but certainly believe it to be worthy of a conversation, around a campfire on a beautiful Tanzania evening, and respect your right to an opinion, even after so many Sundowners that have fogged your mind!

Added that last bit out of humor, just kidding of course..