My 416 Taylor Hits 2400fps...

13 November 2001, 19:08

Gents,

Well, it may be a bit early for celebrating, but I managed to reach 2431fps in my 416 Taylor.

Why a bit early?...

That's because only three of the five bullets that I fired over the chrony gave any reading at all. The other two (the last two) didn't produce a reading because it was getting too dark.

Still those three read...

2422
2441
2432

As a bonus, the one group I fired (the other two were just for speed) had all three holes touching! Kinda strung out measuring 1.2" left to right, and .5 inches vertically.

This rifle has never shown that sort of accuracy before, so I was very surprised!

What's the fabulous new secret power?...

None other than plain old H4895. 72.0grs to be exact, in R-P brass, Fed210M primers, shooting Hornady 400gr Round Nose bullets. C.O.L. was the basic 3.350 inches, standard short magnum length.

No pressure signs, but the ol'rifle kicked a bit more than usual!

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

14 November 2001, 02:12

<bigdog>

Brian,

All along I knew it was possible. When I get my Taylor back from the smith I am starting with RL-15, H4895 and N-550. I have used the N-550 in my 35 Whelen and acheived 100 FPS more. Have you tried any ball powders Like H414?

I e-mailed Vit/Lapua for load data but received no response.

Thanks for the update

Classic35

14 November 2001, 07:24

Bill/Oregon

Brian, that's great. I am going to take notes on your load, as my .416 Taylor will be ready soon. Just awaiting the stock, a Medalist with aluminum bedding in tan with black spiderwebbing from Bell and Carlson. I started with a VZ24 action and a Pac-Nor stainless barrel, and my smith put a Model 70-style wing safety on the bolt for me, and added a Bold trigger. Looks like it is about time to order a set of dies from Graf. Oh boy!

14 November 2001, 10:56

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BW:
Hi Brian,
I would think if you reach 2420 fps your at the max for the Taylor. You may get more but your pressures will be high so be careful. If you get an accurate load at 2400 be happy with it and if you want more get a Rigby. The Taylor on Moose ect is devestating at 2400 with the 400 grain Hornady round nose or the 350 Barnes X at 2500fps. 470 Mbogo

16 November 2001, 06:43

Sorry guys, I've been busy the past couple days, didn't mean to post, then run...

bigdog,

I have not tried any ball powders. There's not a great selection of powders in my town, in fact I need to check on getting more H4895.

Bill/Oregon

That sounds like a VERY nice rifle! This data is not listed on my webpage yet. I notorious for being slow at updating that page.

470 Mbogo,

The 72.0gr load comes from Art Alphins "Any Shot You Want" manual. It's Arts max load with this powder, and he list the pressure at 49,300 CUP. Nick Harvey's "Practical Reloading Manual" has 74.0grs listed as max, but I suspect that will be too much in my rifle.

Overall, now that I've reached my goal, I'll probably back down a couple grains. Although, if I lose the accuracy, I may stick with it. When it come time to take the rifle to Africa, I'll certainly trade some accuracy though, for reliable extraction.

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

18 November 2001, 07:08

Atkinson

Thats great, but why? You'd be real smart to cut back to 2300 FPS where its supposed to be..then if you shoot it in the African heat the bolt won't stick...and with a 400 gr. bullet the killing power and trajectory won't be any different, that 100 FPS serve no purpose....then again some folks hate reality checks

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

19 November 2001, 15:02

Canuck

Ray, Ray, Ray...always have to spoil our fun with a dose of reality or common sense, doncha?

Brian, congrats on hittin twenty-four hundo. It is nice to know that you can. It might just be a little ".416 Cartridge Small Guy Complex", but if nothing else it does show what an efficient "little" .416 the Taylor really is. I am hoping to play around with 4895 over the winter, chinooks willing of course. I will keep you posted on my load development so you can include it on your site. I will also give it to Saeed for use on his pages as well, once I have something substantial.

Could you tell me what temperature and elevation your loads were chronied at? I am trying to keep track of the variation in my loads and yours may make a nice comparison.

Regards, Canuck.

19 November 2001, 17:49

Canuck,

Don't worry about Ray, he's been peeing in my Taylor Wheaties from day one.

Heck, if he were to say anything really nice, I'd fall out of my chair in surprise!

(Just kiddin Ray, thanks for the help.)

I checked my copious range notes, (the back of a paper plate) and noticed I somehow failed to log the temperature for that session! I'll give my best S.W.A.G. and say it was mid-40's and perhaps 30ft ASL. May have been lower in elevation though, as I just recalled that the city expanded the shooting range in a "wet-land" zone, without the proper permission.

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

20 November 2001, 03:12

sdgunslinger

The .416 Remington , .338 , and numerous others are factory loaded to something like 52 or 53000 cup and everyone says they're great . I know of one guy who hot loads a 9.3x62 to power waaay over factory loads and he uses it on dangerous African game . Yet he is still with us banging on his keyboard . But if you load a Taylor up to that level , all of a sudden cases are going to stick everytime you pull the trigger and you are going to get et by lions , tigers , and bears ....

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 11-19-2001).]

20 November 2001, 07:36

Atkinson

SDgunslinger,
thats not a factual statement by any means, the 9.3x62 is terribly underloaded in most foreign factory cases, as is the 404 Jefferys, 7x57 and 8x57...I don't over load any of my rifles and hunt Africa.

I mic all cases and will not shoot a load that expands past .0002 when hunting Africa and that has seemed to work for years. You will also take note that I have long throats in most of my rifles, which in effect is an improved chamber...

I don't think that you can load a 416 Taylor to compete with a 416 Rem without a problem sooner or later...thats just asking a lot, and when the temp soars to 110 and the barrels hot from shooting, you may get a problem, in this case..I don't know but I would think it would be worth consideration without flame.

I further believe that a 400 gr. bullet at 2300 is every bit as effective as a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS, which speaks well for the 416 Taylor or 375 Taylors ability to compete with their big brother counterparts....

I certainly know that a 416 Rem with its bigger case and more powder space will outperform a 416 bullet from a 338 case..although you can equal the 416 Rem you do so at very increased pressure and that is obvious that your in the .0010 maybe .0015 case expansion area..

I don't feel like I have condemmed the 416 Taylor in any way, it is a fine caliber in its own right, but common since tells one you cannot safly make a 416 Rem out of it, anymore than you can make a 416 Wby out of the 416 Rem or a 9.3x64 out of a 9.3x62, you have to be satisfied with comming close enough for all practical purposes, and that has been accomplished here.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

20 November 2001, 07:45

Rich Anderson

BW what would you recomend for a starting point using H4895 and the 300 to 350gr bullets. Have you tried IMR 3031?

20 November 2001, 08:01

Recono

Ray,

I think your reasoning is perfectly sound. That's why I'm happy with my .416 Rigby, for all the reasons you said. The only thing I don't like about my CZ is that the action isn't big enough & heavy enough, so I have to add weight by way of the CZ mounts and, to a lesser extent, the scope.

20 November 2001, 10:07

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by BW:
I'll give my best S.W.A.G. and say it was mid-40's and perhaps 30ft ASL.

Very interesting. The temperature is very similar to the conditions I usually shoot in (on average anyway). It did not dawn on me how very different the elevation is though. The range I shoot at is located at about 1600m, which is about 5200 ft. I imagine our thin air must be a contributing factor in my "higher than usual" velocities.

Anyone know a rule of thumb relative to the effect of elevation on velocity for the same load?

Canuck

20 November 2001, 10:40

Rich,

I have tried IMR 3031 before, but to be honest, I didn't do a lot of loading with it. Around the same time, I found the RL-15 was working so much better than the other powers, that I pretty much abandoned them.

I don't have much for H4895 and 300gr bullets. One load I tried was 70gr H4895 and a cast Beartooth 335gr bullet. The groups I shot with cast bullets needed to be measured with a yard stick, not vernier calipers (or "very-nears" as I like to call'em ).

If it were me, and my rifle, I would have no problems starting out at the 400gr max data and working up a few grains. Once again, A-Square lists 72.0gr H4895 as max with 400gr bullets. Nick Harvey lists 74.0gr H4895 as max with 400gr bullets.

Guess I would start with 72.0grs, and work up slowly looking for pressure signs using whatever technique you prefer.

If you find some good loads, I (well, we as there's a few of us here) would love to hear about them.

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

20 November 2001, 10:53

Ray,

Glad you can stand our good-natured ribbing!

Of course your correct. How could one expect to match velocities with a cartridge that has a larger case? Ya can't. Not if both are loaded to the same pressures, etc.

I'll try and be happy with 2300fps, but it's only natural to try different bullet/powder combinations when things get slow.

Like your 9.3x62mm, my Taylor has a very long throat. I can seat a 400gr Hornady RN in the case a 1/16th of an inch (or so) feed it into the chamber, and it comes out the same length (3.740). That means it's still not touching the rifling!

Now that I've learned about opening up Winchester Classic actions to "magnum" lengths, I'll select a longer case for my next really big bore.

Take care!

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

20 November 2001, 11:42

sdgunslinger

Why Ray , I never mentioned your name even once . Whatever makes you think I was refering to you ?

Just kiddin' ya of course !

But I really wonder just how hot a Taylor has to be loaded to get to the 2400 fps level . Chatfield-Taylor , John Wooters and others loaded their .416 s up to 2400 and took them to Africa ; no problems reported . I think Ken Waters got 2400 out of his Taylor as reported in Handloader , and he is a pretty careful fellow , not a wild eyed blower up of rifles by any means ......

21 November 2001, 16:34

Atkinson

I thought Waters and Wooters got 2350 max out of their guns...I know I got 2750 out of a 375 Chatfield tayor with 270 gr. bullets, but it was a mite hot, but did fine for two firings and two trimmings...so no doubt it can be done with the 416 Taylor, but ???????

Confusas sez, big case last longer.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

22 November 2001, 04:52

Canuck

I have the Wooter's and Hagel articles from the mid-70's in my files at home. Both of them easily achieved 2400 fps with the 400gr bullet. If I remember, I will post their data tomorrow. BW might have it handy though.

FWIW, Canuck

22 November 2001, 07:04

Paul H

I recall reading an article by Andy Runyan about the 416 rem mag in Alaska, and they were pushing 400 gr's over 2500 fps. So, while 400's at 2400 out of the taylor may be hot, they aren't equaling what the 416 rem mag does at max pressures.

I do agree that 2300 seems like a reasonable max with the taylor, that leaves it 200 fps shy of what the rem mag can do, just like how the 458 mag is ~200 fps shy of the 458 lott.

Brian, congrats, and maybe someday I'll build a 416 howell to see what it does, but I'm still waiting on my 458 HRH and 500 Jeffrey from John, and they ougth to dish out enoug punishment to keep me busy for awhile!

25 November 2001, 06:15

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Canuck:
Hi Canuck and BW,
It's a funny thing that everyone with a 416 Taylor reaches 2400 fps without problems and lots of others that don't have them tell you that 2300 is the max. I've shot mine at 2400 and reloaded the cases ten to twelve times. I use reloader 15 only and shoot these loads both in winter and in the summer. I use Winchester brass and a drop tube to load all the RL15 I use. I only neck size once the brass is fireformed. The only brass I've lost has been due to neck splits after ten or twelve reloadings. The primer pockets have always remained tight. The temperature difference has been -15 C to 32 C. I think your loads with H4895 which is one of the temperature stable powders should work out well. I like the 2400 fps loading because it groups the best in my rifle and has shown no problems. If you like 2300 fps use it but don't shy away from a bit more. 470 Mbogo