The Accurate Reloading Forums
458 winchester magnum
458 winchester magnum
Another trial of dummies in an action:
The MRC M1999 X2 in "26 Nolser" (factory barrel marking) is a stainless/synthetic rifle.
The magazine box is blocked at the back like on an M70 Classic.
The bolt will close over three of the .458 WinRuger dummies, with enough room to CRF the fourth round off the top.
That makes it like the .300 H&H/.375 H&H Pre-'64 M70 in magazine capacity.
It is also a little roomier for 3+1 in .458 Win.
However the Pre-'64 is an opened-up .30-06-length action.
The MRC is a blocked-off .375 H&H-length action.
The length of the ejection port on the lateral/right side of the Pre-'64 action is only 3-1/4" long, with some other ring and bridge cuts.
That dimension for the MRC M1999 X2 is 3-3/8", 1/8" longer, with no other ring and bridge cuts.
It seems the ejector and bolt stop location for the X2 are already back far enough for the .375 H&H length too.
All that is needed is to remove the block from the back of the box to make it ready for 3.6" COL.
So, it is probably a stronger action than the Pre-'64, and also available in stainless.
AND IT FEEDS FLAT NOSE SOLIDS BETTER THAN THE PRE-'64!
But it might not be as light in weight ...
Rip ...
12 August 2018, 18:26
416Tanzanquote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Test the 458 WinRuger.
You may not need to cry at all ...
. . .
This one chambers nicely, without resistance, no shoulder bulge. Of course it is a single-shot loader in the Whitworth,
but the loaded rounds if unfired can be ejected from that 3.4"-boxed, standard action just fine:
Rip ...
I like repeat pictures of good-looking cartridges.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
A double repeat:
Ought to get some useful information from just fire-forming 50 pieces of brass.
Rip ...
Two candidates for either .458 Win. or .458 WinRuger with longCOL magazines, 3+1 fourshooters both:
Top rifle in picture above: 26-1/4" barrel of No.3 sporter contour, "26 Nolser" X2 from MRC, weighs 8.0 lbs as shown.
It might lose 0.75 pound with a 23", No.4 sporter barrel of .458 caliber >>> 7.25 lbs.
Add another 0.25 pound for a muzzle brake >>> 7.5 lbs.
The Pre-'64 M70 with the "Brown Pounder" stock might be 7.0 lbs as a .458 Win. with a muzzle brake.
The barrel on it now is a Rusty-McGee-custom-turned, McGowen .395-caliber barrel that is close to a No.4 sporter.
It is 23"long, so that is about identical to what the Featherweight M70 in either .458-caliber chambering would look like, minus the muzzle brake.
That rifle, as a .395/.375 H&H, with scope bases and NECG front sight, otherwise bare and empty, weighs 6 lbs 14 oz.
A magazine-blocked, .375 H&H-length action unblocked
vs.
a .30-06-length action opened up mostly to the rear, to .375 H&H-length:
7.5# braked .458 WinRuger Longclaw from donor MRC M1999 X2
vs
7.0# braked .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw from donor Pre-'64 M70:
The .458 Win. wins that round of the match on points.
Rip ...
Just moving THE MISSION along.
Rip ...
13 August 2018, 07:16
Cold Trigger FingerThe MRC would put a bit more weight between the hands. And, if you already have a Creed, what good is a throat blasting , over bore 6.5.
Better to turn it into something with some longevity in it.
I would think the throat on a 458 WinRuger would last several thousand rounds.
26 Nosler, 700 rounds if your lucky.
Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
Shoot the 26 Nolser 700 times and then rebarrel.
Rip ...
Here you can see why an X2 in 26 Nosler might not need any work in moving the ejector-boltstop backwards.
It is already well back:
Remove the spacer at the back of the box of the X2 ...
... and, the X2 box is maybe 0.030" longer than that of the Pre-'64 M70 with H&H box:
The X2 feed ramp and rails work better in feeding FN solids in .458 WinRuger.
The slightly fatter-at-the-front, shouldered .458 WinRuger cartridge causes the FN solid to hit the feed ramp lower.
Not so much with the .458 Win. which works well in both rifles.
Both rifles are 3+1 fourshooters with either .458 Win. or .458 WinRuger.
Rip ...
.458 WinRuger donor rifle:
.458 Win. donor rifle:
Rip ...
14 August 2018, 06:51
sambarman338quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Shoot the 26 Nolser 700 times and then rebarrel.
Rip ...
Sometimes, the need for a flat-shooting rifle is more important than barrel life. I suspect the barrel in my 270WSM won't last long, but it served its purpose as a featherweight tahr rifle and is there for the odd backpacking trip.
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Shoot the 26 Nolser 700 times and then rebarrel.
Rip ...
Sometimes, the need for a flat-shooting rifle is more important than barrel life. I suspect the barrel in my 270WSM won't last long, but it served its purpose as a featherweight tahr rifle and is there for the odd backpacking trip.
That 270 WSM should last a bit longer than a 26 Nosler,
especially if it stays sighted to that one special tahr load, gets fired only for one-shot kills on tahr,
and gets cleaned once a year by simply firing one shot to check zero,
until a total of 20 shots have been fired, then a real cleaning.
The barrel should last a lifetime.
Rip ...
Notes from the quest for the .458 Win. and .458 WinRuger Longclaw (3.6" COL) rifles:
Another reason the MRC might be better for the .458 WinRuger's shouldered cartridges might be found in the shaping of the followers.
The Pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H follower is thinner at the front and thicker at the rear, in height, versus the MRC X2 26 Nosler follower.
For use with H&H-belted cartridges:
For use with the RUM-based, shouldered cartridges:
A longer follower might be needed for the MRC if its box is unblocked ...
But that is still about the easiest possible conversion of a "30-06-length" rifle to an "H&H-length" rifle.
First, I have to get that CZ .458 Lott rebarreled to .458 Win.
For THE MISSION.
Rip ...
14 August 2018, 13:17
416TanzanSome of the Mission is to see and compare what can be done with the more modern Ruger case, 458 and 338. We already have a pretty good picture of the 375Ruger and 416Ruger, though long throat vrrsions there would be of interest to the peanut gallery, too. Kawabunga.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
14 August 2018, 17:56
Mike McGuireWho cares about the barrel life of the 26 Nosler, 6.5/300 Wby, 30/378 etc. Those that are barrel life minded don't own these sort of calibres but rather the 260 Rem or similar and the 308 or 30/06 and similar.
Yep, THE MISSION is to get this thread to 458 pages and beyond, whatever it takes,
even by resorting to comparing the .458 Win. to the .458 WinRuger, etc.,
until this thread gets locked or deleted for wasting bandwidth.
It has been fascinating so far, for me.
Anybody that read the whole thing might learn a thing or two. I sure have.
Thanks to all for MISSION SUPPORT.
Rip ...
The MRC M1992 X2 magazine box is identical to the Winchester M70 Classic sheet metal.
I tried one of the Classic mag boxes of .375 H&H length in the X2 and found that
indeed some work on the boltstop-ejector will be required to open it up to H&H length.
The LongCOL cartridge base, as it rises in the magazine hangs up at the too-long ejector.
That Massive-Fixed ejector has to be shortened in order to go LongCOL.
And I will not be assured it will feed the .458 WinRuger FN solids as well with a 3.6" box as it does now with a 3.4" box.
So I am going "Full-On-Metrosexual" (FOM) with any .458 WinRuger rifle I might build henceforth.
Q: What makes a .458 WinRuger-FOM rifle?
A: Barrel 23" (or less) in length, and adherence to 3.340" or lesser COL.
That ought to handicap the .458 WinRuger enough to keep it down to .458 Win. "Full-On-Retrosexual" (FOR) performance,
and that is all you could ever need.
Q: What makes a .458 Win-FOR rifle?
A: Barrel 24" (or more) in length, and allowance of COL greater than 3.340".
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.
Rip ...
15 August 2018, 00:58
Cold Trigger FingerI don't think so. !!!
Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
CTF,
Just yankin' yer chain for THE MISSION, so thanks for the reply.
BTW, the MRC M1999 X2 composite/fiberglass stock has aluminum pillars.
The X2 stock weighs in at right about 2.0 pounds,
which is a half-pound heavier than a Brown Pounder with pad, paint and pillars.
The X2 stock is lighter than an HS Precision or B&C Medalist,
which have the full bedding block and weigh about 2.5 pounds.
Rip ...
15 August 2018, 01:28
Ray Bquote:
Originally posted by RIP:
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.
Rip ...
I recall 15 or 20 years ago that Scout Rifles were all-the-rage. The primary difference I saw was having the scope mounted similarly to one mounted on 60 years old M94 carbines ahead of the action. Since I haven't heard anything about scout rifles in years, I'm guessing that they lost favor with the gunwriters because of decreased advertising dollars.
Looking at my rebarrelled 458, I may have to dig out the original barrel and compare the leade dimensions of both. I have noted that if I use pointed bullets such as the Nosler Partition the bullet may be seated well out of standard COL, so it may work with only removing the spacer from the back of the magazine.
Ray B,
If you can get a Winchester M70 Classic box for a .375 H&H (before you unblock your .458 Win. box),
you will be able to tell if you have to shorten the ejector/boltstop.
I suspect it will work like the MRC X2 that at first blush I thought might not need the ejector/boltstop work.
It will.
Same with a .30-06 M70 Classic action that I opened up to H&H length for the 400 Whelen-B.
Must do both the unblocking and the ejector/boltstop shortening to get it to work.
Thanks for the MISSION SUPPORT.
Rip ...
The "Raging .458 Win-FOR" is the CZ 550 Magnum with 25" barrel and 3.8" box.
Rip ...
15 August 2018, 06:06
Cold Trigger Fingerquote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Who cares about the barrel life of the 26 Nosler, 6.5/300 Wby, 30/378 etc. Those that are barrel life minded don't own these sort of calibres but rather the 260 Rem or similar and the 308 or 30/06 and similar.
But what are those barrel burners going to accomplish that the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't already do.
If a bigger or faster bullet is required , the next logical step up is the 338 caliber. Something like a RUM or Edge or Lapuua.
Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
15 August 2018, 06:33
sambarman338quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Shoot the 26 Nolser 700 times and then rebarrel.
Rip ...
Sometimes, the need for a flat-shooting rifle is more important than barrel life. I suspect the barrel in my 270WSM won't last long, but it served its purpose as a featherweight tahr rifle and is there for the odd backpacking trip.
That 270 WSM should last a bit longer than a 26 Nosler,
especially if it stays sighted to that one special tahr load, gets fired only for one-shot kills on tahr,
and gets cleaned once a year by simply firing one shot to check zero,
until a total of 20 shots have been fired, then a real cleaning.
The barrel should last a lifetime.
Rip ...
Thanks RIP,
I'll keep that in mind.
If nothing else, this post should add another five or six inches to the thread
15 August 2018, 06:38
Cold Trigger Fingerquote:
Originally posted by Ray B:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.
Rip ...
I recall 15 or 20 years ago that Scout Rifles were all-the-rage. The primary difference I saw was having the scope mounted similarly to one mounted on 60 years old M94 carbines ahead of the action. Since I haven't heard anything about scout rifles in years, I'm guessing that they lost favor with the gunwriters because of decreased advertising dollars.
.
Scout rifles are basically just a carbine or Compact rifle. I don't get hung up in the minutia of a retired Gubmint employee's desire for greater fame . That used tax dollars to pay for his ammo to perfect his shooting skill.
But, he did have a good idea with the scout rifle.
I've killed more deer with much larger carts than are usually used. And more than most on here with 4-7,000 ft lb carts. So overkill isn't a term or thot process that I ascribe to. But the fact is , there ain't a necessary use for carts like the 270 WSM 26 Nosler ect or the pos fast 30s. Just noisey bothersome barrel burners. Unless someone is too light in the loafers to accurately shoot something like a 338 RUM ect .
When driving a 4 wheeler I pack my rifle on the handle bars. In a handle bar gun rack. If the rifle is longer than the 4 wheeler is wide , something is gonna get broke when the the barrel or butt smackes a tree.
Nice short rifle doesn't get all beat up.
Doesn't get hung up in the brush ect.
Super easy to have a nice little carbine in hand, slung or on or in a highway or off road vehicle or boat. Push comes to shove, its the convenient rifle that will be with to take the shot.
Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
15 August 2018, 09:38
Cougarzquote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
quote:
Originally posted by Ray B:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.
Rip ...
I recall 15 or 20 years ago that Scout Rifles were all-the-rage. The primary difference I saw was having the scope mounted similarly to one mounted on 60 years old M94 carbines ahead of the action. Since I haven't heard anything about scout rifles in years, I'm guessing that they lost favor with the gunwriters because of decreased advertising dollars.
.
Scout rifles are basically just a carbine or Compact rifle. I don't get hung up in the minutia of a retired Gubmint employee's desire for greater fame . That used tax dollars to pay for his ammo to perfect his shooting skill.
But, he did have a good idea with the scout rifle.
I've killed more deer with much larger carts than are usually used. And more than most on here with 4-7,000 ft lb carts. So overkill isn't a term or thot process that I ascribe to. But the fact is , there ain't a necessary use for carts like the 270 WSM 26 Nosler ect or the pos fast 30s. Just noisey bothersome barrel burners. Unless someone is too light in the loafers to accurately shoot something like a 338 RUM ect .
When driving a 4 wheeler I pack my rifle on the handle bars. In a handle bar gun rack. If the rifle is longer than the 4 wheeler is wide , something is gonna get broke when the the barrel or butt smackes a tree.
Nice short rifle doesn't get all beat up.
Doesn't get hung up in the brush ect.
Super easy to have a nice little carbine in hand, slung or on or in a highway or off road vehicle or boat. Push comes to shove, its the convenient rifle that will be with to take the shot.
Well unless you've never hunted anywhere other than the "brush".
In wide open plains and mountains those useless fast cartridges come into their own.
Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
*we band of 45-70ers*
15 August 2018, 15:02
Mike McGuirequote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Who cares about the barrel life of the 26 Nosler, 6.5/300 Wby, 30/378 etc. Those that are barrel life minded don't own these sort of calibres but rather the 260 Rem or similar and the 308 or 30/06 and similar.
But what are those barrel burners going to accomplish that the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't already do.
If a bigger or faster bullet is required , the next logical step up is the 338 caliber. Something like a RUM or Edge or Lapuua.
I guess it comes down to what you want. For me personally the 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, 308 etc have zero interest.
15 August 2018, 15:27
Mike McGuireBy the way Cold Trigger Finger you are talking to a bloke who had done a lot of spotlight shooting on kangaroos, pigs, foxes and rabbits with the 378
