What is the right length action for the 404
After market or commercial

Doesn't it use the standard magnum length of 3.6 inches, same as 375 h&h?

I think you could get the action either in 375 length or a true magnum (416 Rigby).One will make a shorter rifle but loading will be tight.The other will make a longer rifle but will load easy.

A .404 can be built on a standard mauser or a magnum length action. I think they are much better on a standard length action finishing up at about 8 & 1/4 lbs. Much work needs to be done to the rails and feed ramp along with a box of the proper geometry to get them to feed properly. If you want to buy an action that feeds the .404 right out of the box look at the Mayfair magnum actions Roger Green sells. If you decide on a standard mauser I have a stock pattern taken from an early Jeffery .404, best of luck with your project.
Steve

One of my guides had one built 1.5 years ago on a std 98 action, it works well. His rifle end weight 4.4kg (9lb 11oz) with 4 in mag. Good carry weight, and hunting weight.
The CZ action is also just right as it has a bit more space, and the Heym even a touch more room again and perfect.
I think a few customs have been done on Winchester actions also.
If I was to build up a custom one I would use 98 or cz action.

I've built a number of 404s on std Mauser actions, but I much prefer a true magnum Mauser action..Its just so much better IMO..but I won't debate it, to each his own, and those actions are a hell of a lot more expensive at $3500 last count, but probably $4500 to $5000 today, or so Im told..

I always felt the 404 in a std. action was a blivet, that's 5 lbs. of poop in a 2 pound bag..

I guess the pre 64 Win. Magnum action is a good second best choice..I lived with that delima for many years as the 404 was my choice of the big bores, and Ive never changed my mind on that.

The Sako TRG-s uses the M995 action, as does the TRG-42. The "s" for Sporter has been chambered in .338/378wby and .338 Lapua, along with several of the Lazzeroni ctgs. These ctgs use the .588 boltface.

TRG-s has been chambered in .270win and up standard ctgs, as well as .532 boltface standard magnums. I owned a .30-378 s and still have one in .340wby, as well as a TRG-42 w/custom barrel.

Both series rifles use detachable magazines, the S holding 3 super-mag ctgs or 4 standard magnums. The TRG-42 mags are adaptable giving you 7 std mags or 5 super-mags. The bolt is easily stripped for cleaning, not needing any special tool or technique. The safety locks the bolt and blocks the firing pin,

The TRG-s makes a fine hunting rifle. Bolts are available from Beretta USA allowing All Options for switchbarrelling. Bolts are precisely interchangeable.

The "s" has been out of production for about 15yrs, but they do show up on Gunbroker fairly regularly. Pac-Nor did a superb barrel job for me. The M995 action uses a 3 lug bolt and has a 70 degree bolt throw, so it is fast and sure when it needs to be.

Great rifles... The std. magnums seem to sell for less than the super-mags. The Remington ultra magnum series is a fine choice for affordable brass which could be wildcatted to whichever caliber you prefer.

I think the .375ruger ctg would be the best for wildcatting as its shorter body allows max versatility in bullet seating in the 3.75"oal magazine. The .416ruger is a fine choice if you aren't going to hotrod a Jeffery or Rigby. Lots of Hornady brass out there, and loaded ammunition.

Winchester rifles in 300 RUM were or are quite desirable, as they are easy to convert to 404 Jeffery.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I've built a number of 404s on std Mauser actions, but I much prefer a true magnum Mauser action..Its just so much better IMO..but I won't debate it, to each his own, and those actions are a hell of a lot more expensive at $3500 last count, but probably $4500 to $5000 today, or so Im told..

I always felt the 404 in a std. action was a blivet, that's 5 lbs. of poop in a 2 pound bag..

I guess the pre 64 Win. Magnum action is a good second best choice..I lived with that delima for many years as the 404 was my choice of the big bores, and Ive never changed my mind on that.

So all those beautiful mausers were shit in 404?

Best and most cost effective thing to build a new 404 on is a post 64 Model 70; either push feed or claw; they are all the correct length, unlike all Mausers except the very expensive Magnum Mauser, or the pre 64 Model 70, which were all 30-06 length.

I just think Ray overstated his point.

I second the Winchester M70 Long Action (Classic or FN/SC), yes the RUM is easiest, or an opened up Mauser M98 or a Magnum Mauser or CZ 550 Magnum.
Never a pushfeed.

Wish we had the Mod70 Rums here in Aus.

I had a Bland takedown on a standard action, worked fine

My current 404J is a C&H on a P14 action. Nice rifle at 8lbs 2oz. Open sights only.

Add: ... or a Dakota M76 (like Saeed uses for his .375/404J), or an MRC M1999, or a Pre-'64 M70 opened up like they did at the factory for the .300 H&H and .375 H&H.

I would fear the occasional improperly headspaced cartridge jumping the tiny little extractor in a pushfeed,
and the 8.5* shoulder of the .404 Jeffery could be more prone to a misfire or a FIRE with a head separation even with brand new brass,
without the backup head-spacing of a robust claw extractor.
That means the Ruger No. 1 is a no-no too, for the .404 Jeffery.
Maybe that is why Sturm Ruger made a few of those and quit?

Rip ...

I discussed this very subject when ordering my .404 Jeffery from my rifle builder. He said that, hands down, the slightly longer standard magnum Mauser action is a better choice. Better feeding and no need to graind away a lot of metal, not to mention the suitability and flexibility of the longer magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by blaser93:
What is the right length action for the 404
After market or commercial

The correct length action is that of the Mauser Magnum M98 action, specifically made by Mauser for the largest cartridge they had in their catalogue, the 404 Jeffery. This is the only action Mauser produced their commercial 404 on. Due to Rigby's expensive monopoly on the magnum Mauser action in England, other gunmakers including Jeffery made the 404 on opened up Standard M98 actions but this was a compromise needing a lot of metal work and magazine box work.
Done properly the standard M98 works perfectly in 404, some preferring the shorter stroke bolt throw and lighter weight rifle the Standard M98 produces. I have such a conversion in the much sort after Oberndorf Type A Pattern 1 Mauser but if given a choice I would certainly take an even more sort after magnum Mauser in 404.

There is no "right" length action, any action that can be safely opened up for the 404 cartridge will work, as others have posted, some better than others.

quote:

The correct length action is that of the Mauser Magnum M98 action, specifically made by Mauser for the largest cartridge they had in their catalogue, the 404 Jeffery. This is the only action Mauser produced their commercial 404 on. Due to Rigby's expensive monopoly on the magnum Mauser action in England, other gunmakers including Jeffery made the 404 on opened up Standard M98 actions but this was a compromise needing a lot of metal work and magazine box work.

This always left me wondering about Jeffery and 404. The "Problem" if you wish lies in the Time line.

As far as Jeffery goes in their Production of the 404 we know that the first 404 saw the light of day around just before or around 1905.

Jeffery ( the company) did not build guns ! They imported barreled actions and had them finished ! I like to call the finishing process Anglicization Interesting though is that Rigby's first steps into this more than a decade before the Anglicization was done by Mauser in Germany. We see from the Mauser Archival material that in the case of the very early Rigby 7x57's later to be called 275's were fully built and shipped from Germany to Rigby's outlet.

So if the Magnum Action is the "correct" action and I have no doubt it is why do we only see Mauser Magnum actioned 404's around 1925/1926 ?
This is a decade after Mauser supplied via LePersonne in Liege Belgium the first barreled actions in 404.

Here are some random notes I made about Jeffery some years before

A hundred years with Jeffery’s 404:

Random notes on the 404 Jeffery by Alf Smith

On October 18, 2005 the 404 Jeffery will be a hundred years old, for it is a hundred years ago that the Eley Brothers Ltd. of Angel Road, Edmonton, London registered their factory drawing No. 24 titled “Special Jeffery case”.

In a hundred years this cartridge attained cult status amongst those who have hunted the shores of Africa, for good reason as many will attest.

The 404 however very nearly slipped into obscurity.

With the election of the Labour government of Harold Wilson in England in 1964, liberal politics dealt the British gun trade a near fatal blow. Eley / Kynoch the principle source of ammunition for the 404 made the decision in 1962 to cease ammunition loading. This was enacted in phases and finally in 1972 all ammo loading ceased.

The 404 like many other proud British sporting cartridges now waited to sink into obscurity.

But enthusiasts would have none of this, as a very practical, very sweet shooting big game and general use cartridge the 404 was far too valuable. The saving grace lay with RWS in Germany who in 1970 resurrected the 404 and much needed ammo and cases could be had for those who owned rifles in this caliber.

It is mainly then the enthusiasm of those who owned and worked with the 404 that kept the flame alive.

Today with African hunting far different to the glory days, the 404 has again arisen.
It is so popular that CZ –USA have introduced the 404 as a factory offering and soon Federal may be producing factory 404 ammunition. ( Announced at SCI 2005 Reno Nevada )

As a reloaders option the 404 now also boasts a host of mainly small production bullet makers that specialize in the manufacture of the most modern of bullet options. Monometal type flat nosed and solid shank bullets of the banded variety. Norma and Horneber manufacture cases. For the traditionalists there is Woodleigh out of Australia and ammunition can still be had from the newly arisen Kynoch in England.


Confusion in a round about way:

Who designed it first?

WJ Jeffery ( England ) or possibly in Germany ?Why even ask? Well we know that WJ Jeffery did not build guns, they imported Mauser barreled actions for their bolt action guns and they had them finished by at least two finishers, Lenord and Taylor.

It has been alleged that he did not design the 500 Jeffery ( Casey Lewis 500 Jeff monograph) so why would he design the 404 ?

The first German designation for the 404 only saw light in 1924 and apparently up to this point or possibly as late as 1926 the engineers at Mauser were using British made ammo to proof their rifles with.


With this in mind one involuntarily wonders why the Germans made their barrels to the .423 groove diameter spec when English bullets always were of smaller diameter.

What we do know in favour of Jeffery as the designer is his work on the 400 caliber Rimmed 450/400.

There is also evidence of a mystery rimless cartridge based on the 450/400 case. We will call it the 450/400 Rimless.

The overall appearance of this cartridge closely resembles that of the 404 but with the original 405 caliber bullet of the 450/400. The known specimens of this cartridge have the outward appearance of a 404 Jeffery but with a .405 cal bullet as it’s parent the 450/400 Jeffery nitro.

The nominal specs for this cartridge shows the following dimensions:

Bullet dia: 10.31mm/0.4059”
Case length: 75.87mm/2.987”
Base dia: 13.76mm/0.5417”
Rim dia: 12.3mm/0.48425”
Cart. Length: 95.2mm/3.748”



We know that the .423 diameter bullet was around before the 404 Jeffery was introduced circa 1905?

The 1905 date is also controversial in printed media as most students of the 404 claim dates ranging from 1905 to 1911.

The early Jeffery catalogues refer to the cartridge as far back as 1905.
The first known factory drawing of the case is dated October 18 1905. There is also evidence that the 423 caliber was also in use in the USA before the British gun trade thought of it.

What is in a name?

Why 404? This is one of the questions that has been asked by many as it does not fit the “usual” mode or method of naming cartridges.

Neither the bore or groove diameter fits the title, maybe this gave reference to the fact that it was a forty caliber with a 4 round capacity. Bolt guns of the time were often referred to as repeaters in that the shooter could fire at least 4 shots before recharging the magazine. ( 3 down one up the spout )

Introduction dates by ammo catalogue entries:

404 Jeffery: Designed 1905- (Source: Jeffery Catalogue 1910-1911)

But ammunition catalogue entries only show it for the first time in 1909 hence the popularity of the date of introduction as 1909 by many authors.

Other German 10,75 cartridges of the same era:

10,75x73 (aka 404 Jeffery )The German version: 1926 (DWM) ? 1924

10,75x63 1908
10,75x68 1909
10,75x57 1906

Caliber designation:

The Mauser caliber specifications for the 10,75 calibre rifles (404 as well as the 10,75x68 ) as per the original Mauser barrel specification sheet shows the following:

Land diameter (bore):10.45 + 0.05 mm (.411)
Groove diameter: 10.75 + 0.05 mm (.423)
Twist:1:420 mm
Groove width: 3.6 mm
No. of grooves: 6 groove barrel.

Bore in modern US terms is defined as diameter between lands so in terms of modern definition the 404 Jeffery as defined in Germany in 1926 was in fact a .411 calibre and not a .423?

The A-Square manual cites “English bore” diameters as land diameter of .410 and a groove diameter of .418. Some of these barrels are also reported with a groove diameter of .419 inches.

Were these German barrels (unlikely) or the English Vickers barrels?

It would appear that the English trade using standard Military Mauser actions or later Mauser derivatives such as the FN and Enfield actions favoured locally made Vickers barrels and amongst these we encounter the 418 and 419 bore barrels.

What confuses further is that the original and subsequent bullet specifications show that the 404 actually shot a .422 inch bullet.

I find this strange because Jeffery used via H. Lenord and the company, Le Personne, Liege (Belgium)Mauser barrelled actions with Krupp steel barrels for their 404’s, thus one would assume German cut barrels to the Mauser specifications?

Why then would the English trade build guns with “ tight “ barrels ?

Today’s modern CIP specifications allow for barrel groove diameters between .418 and .423 inches.


Bullet diameter:

The original Kynoch bullet diameter for this caliber was a .421 to .422 bullet, thus would be a loose fit in a 423 inch barrel and would be good for the 418 or 419 barrel provided it was a soft jacketed bullet. There is no cited evidence for a specific bullet that would fit in a .418 or .419 barrel.

Today modern bullets are made to the .423 inch specification.

A word of caution: Some modern bullets are of the monometal configuration without grooves or ribs and as they take considerable energy to be engraved by the bore they should be used with caution in underbore 404 rifles.


Case Specifciations:

Was this / is this a rebated rim cartridge?

The original Kynoch specification for the case rim and head were:

Rim: 13.79mm
Head: 13.84mm

Thus a rebated rim!

Cartridges of the World claims two versions:

A British version with 13.64 mm rim, and a German version with a 13.82mm rim ?

RCBS uses a Rim spec of 13.64 for their dies:

Modern brass ( Norma and Bertram) as per CIP spec use a non-rebated rim and base diameter of 13.7 mm.

What about CIP?

The CIP specification uses a non rebated rim designation of 13.84mm and the same for the base.

A-square in their book cites a rebated rim of .543 inches (13.79) and a base diameter of .545 (13.84) they also refer to the 410 caliber and 418 groove diameter “English” barrels

Case Lengths:

There is reported evidence that the first 404 Jeffery called the “Jeffery 404” was in fact shorter from neck to base than the later (post 14/09/1911) cartridge, or alternately then to the current form a base to neck length of 2.0008 inches. (Source: Wal Winfer British Single shot rifles volume 3 )

The post 1911 cases were renamed to Kynoch 404 and the last entry and specification for the “short cartridge’” was cancelled on 14/09/1920 ?

This report is contrary to the available list of specification drawings on the cartridge.

Order a Blaser, where size doesn't matter

quote:

blaser

Interesting debate ALF. In respect of bullet diameter and bore size, bore commonly thought of as bullet diameter for most shooters rather than getting confused with diameters across the lands or grooves, I corresponded with another 404 owner not long after I acquired mine back in 1977. He was an old guy back then and in poor health, living in another area and not overly forthcoming with information so I didn't learn much as to what his 404 was etc. He did say he would not fire jacketed bullets as his barrel had a bore of .418" and was afraid the pressure would be too high if shooting .423" jacketed bullets. He had contacted me on hearing that I was casting bullets for my 404 and was hoping maybe they would be suitable for his rifle. I did send some cast and sized .424" bullets to him but never heard back if he used them or not, he seemed reluctant to try them. Never heard what become of him or his 404.

Pondoro Taylor mentions a German hunter who had problems with his 404 where jacketed bullets of both British and German manufacture were coming apart and not performing. Pondoro had no such problems himself when using the 404 and was puzzled with this phenomenon admitting the 404 could never have gained the popularity it had in Africa and India back in his days if bullets habitually performed so poorly.

I strongly suspect the German hunter had a tight bore gun, probably .418", which would result in the .423" bullet jackets being deeply engraved by the rifling and likely compromising the jacket strength.

This is the only possibility that could explain poorly performing bullets in one gun but performing well in most others and having become a very popular cartridge in Africa and India.

Bluefish,
I didn't over state anything, I offered a personal opinion based on my experience not heresay,

I realize many fine Mauser were made in 404 by Westley Richards, Holland & Holland,Jefferys, and a few US custom gunsmiths on std actions...but few can make them feed 110% and that's a fact, If one wants a 404 on a std. action he better use the best and most expensive of smiths and expect a long wait..I base my opinion on experience with the caliber, reports by clients who did otherwise.

Just to muddy the waters a little bit; I have an R.B. Rodda in .404 Jeffery (so marked) with both proper 10.75x73 German proof marks and .404 British proof (as expected because likely made in Germany then shipped to England and marketed by Rodda)
The interesting part is that the barrel has land measurement at ~.418” and the groove dimension is ~.429”
Still and all it shoots pretty well with “standard” .423” dia bullets.....average 1.5” groups at 100 yards.
- Mike

ALF,

Thanks for the .404 Jeffery deep dive.

Look at page 6 of Wal Winfer's British Single Shot Rifles Volume 3 --- JEFFERY'S GUNS-RIFLES and General Shooting Accessories.
"Fig. 5 -- Jeffery's Order Ledger (Jeffery's Shop Ledgers are missing.)"

On that page we find sequential serial number entries from 16472 to 16480.
Whether single shot, double rifle, or magazine repeater, these rifles were numbered from same sequence.

Serial number 16476 is a .404 Mauser, weight is 8-1/2 lbs., date is 11/12/1906.

That would have been a standard M98 that was opened up.
Rifles like that are still shooting, 113 years later.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
Just to muddy the waters a little bit; I have an R.B. Rodda in .404 Jeffery (so marked) with both proper 10.75x73 German proof marks and .404 British proof (as expected because likely made in Germany then shipped to England and marketed by Rodda)
The interesting part is that the barrel has land measurement at ~.418” and the groove dimension is ~.429”
Still and all it shoots pretty well with “standard” .423” dia bullets.....average 1.5” groups at 100 yards.
- Mike

Interesting, should plink nicely with .444 Marlin and .44 Rem.Mag. bullets.

My ".404" barrel experience is with McGowen.
All three of them are .425"-diameter for groove.
I slugged the stainless one on an M70 Winchester and got something like .4245" guesstimation.
Certainly no bigger than .425".
CZ-USA used a McGowen barrel on the factory .404 Jeffery rifle I got from them.
It is a 1:10" twist, .425" groove.
All three of my ".404" barrels are the same.

They have worked very well with all .423-caliber jacketed and monometal copper bullets I have tried in them, from 330-grains to 400-grains weight.

Slower twist (CIP standard 1:16.5") would be better for cast-lead bullets,
but the fast twist is great with everything else.
If I did try cast bullets in my .404 barrels,
I would want the bullets sized to .426 or .427" diameter.

Rip ...