458 lott 50yd,offhand target pic -afternoon at the range

05 November 2011, 03:03

I was back at the range today after a 7 week bout with bronchitis.I was actually there yesterday too and after seeing some poor results and then some good ones,I decided to make some changes in the way I shoot or hold the rifle.Here is todays 50yd target.[URL=

]50 yds[/URL] I now use this awkward hold that seems to give better or more accurate shooting.I think I'll practice dryfiring this way so I could get used to it.This new way of shooting consists of standing up really straight, almost stretching for the sky and then mounting the butt higher than usual,and pushing the butt rearward against the shoulder or using my arms to keep the pressure of butt the on my shoulder and less effort holding the rifle upward.I would have video but I forgot to press the start button on the cam.

05 November 2011, 14:02

Brandon.Gleason

Very nice shooting. Kind of makes me want to dig my Lott out of the back of the safe and give it another try.

05 November 2011, 14:55

ozhunter

Shootaway,
I would recommend you try a target similar to the one below if using shallow V and 2mm bead open sights. You might be surprised what is possible.

05 November 2011, 15:51

Brandon.Gleason

What's the comparison cartridge there, oz?

05 November 2011, 16:05

shootaway

Thanks, 5287.Oz,I've tried all kinds of targets and they don't make a difference,besides aren't you a scope hunter?

05 November 2011, 17:01

shootaway

I can't wait to try out my Martini Vektor lott.Ralph should have it ready in the next few months.It will be on display at the coming DSC show.I don't know if it will be finished or not.Marty Rabeno has started working on the engraved floor plate-a lion head.

05 November 2011, 17:35

ozhunter

A 4" circle is almost Ideal from what I've found with a standard front bead.
FFemt, It a 425WR.

05 November 2011, 17:59

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
I was back at the range today after a 7 week bout with bronchitis.I was actually there yesterday too and after seeing some poor results and then some good ones,I decided to make some changes in the way I shoot or hold the rifle.Here is todays 50yd target.[URL= ]50 yds[/URL] I now use this awkward hold that seems to give better or more accurate shooting.I think I'll practice dryfiring this way so I could get used to it.This new way of shooting consists of standing up really straight, almost stretching for the sky and then mounting the butt higher than usual,and pushing the butt rearward against the shoulder or using my arms to keep the pressure of butt the on my shoulder and less effort holding the rifle upward.I would have video but I forgot to press the start button on the cam.

Not a bad pattern. What is the choke?

SSR

05 November 2011, 18:10

shootaway

458LOHOS choke-stands for 458L-lott; OH-offhand;OS-open sights.Not bad for a rifle that does 2-4 inch groups at 50 off the bench.If all the bullets would hit in the center I wouldn't have to practise that much.

05 November 2011, 22:59

Cross L

If all the bullets hit the center by themselves none of us would need to practice---

And what is good about a gun that shoots 4 in off bench at 50--Michael458s guns shoot under an inch at 50-

I know as I bought one from him-

SSR

05 November 2011, 23:39

shootaway

Terms like under an inch at 50 mean nothing since there is no mention of the age of the bore or the conditions it was subjected to and the type of bullets used.I am sure the quality of Michael's rifles are a reflection of the type of hunters who bought them.

like Lion Hunter

05 November 2011, 23:45

capoward

Perhaps you might try - both the target recommended by oz (good shooting by the way) as well as downloading your Lott to replicate a moderate 45/70 loading. Do your fine tuning of rifle hold, fast cycling of bolt, etc. with this reduced loading and then move up in power increments until you can replicate your moderate 45/70 accuracy, bolt cycling etc. with full house Lott loads. Shouldn't take to long to match or perhaps better oz's 50 yd accuracy with your Lott.

05 November 2011, 23:51

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
Perhaps you might try - both the target recommended by oz (good shooting by the way) as well as downloading your Lott to replicate a moderate 45/70 loading. Do your fine tuning of rifle hold, fast cycling of bolt, etc. with this reduced loading and then move up in power increments until you can replicate your moderate 45/70 accuracy, bolt cycling etc. with full house Lott loads. Shouldn't take to long to match or perhaps better oz's 50 yd accuracy with your Lott.

What made you think that Oz shot that group offhand at 50yds with open sights? Capoward,did you buy one of Michael's rifles too? Infact last time Oz posted a picture of the old lion he shot with open sights it had a bullet hole through the gut.

06 November 2011, 22:23

Atkinson

You should be able to put almost every round in a 4 inch circle or less at 50 yards with any DG rifle, you may need to shoot something in the brain to save your beacon..Keep working on it, it will come about.

I would first determine the accuracy of the gun on a bench rest at 50 and 100 yards, then begin an offhand practice session..The goal should be a 3 or 4 inch 5 shot group offhand at 50 yards shot pretty fast before muscle strain sets in..

The go to point shooting at 25 yards without the use of sights, you will be surprised how accurate this can be and two shots in a quarter size group is very possible with a modicum of practice..

Additionally I have found this much easier to accomplish with iron sights as opposed to any scope..I THINK this is because scope magnifies the wabble/wiggle by the power of the scope and one tends to grab at the trigger as the crosshairs float by. You don't see this with irons they look dead on as a rule.

06 November 2011, 23:08

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
You should be able to put almost every round in a 4 inch circle or less at 50 yards with any DG rifle, you may need to shoot something in the brain to save your beacon..Keep working on it, it will come about.

I would first determine the accuracy of the gun on a bench rest at 50 and 100 yards, then begin an offhand practice session..The goal should be a 3 or 4 inch 5 shot group offhand at 50 yards shot pretty fast before muscle strain sets in..

The go to point shooting at 25 yards without the use of sights, you will be surprised how accurate this can be and two shots in a quarter size group is very possible with a modicum of practice..

Additionally I have found this much easier to accomplish with iron sights as opposed to any scope..I THINK this is because scope magnifies the wabble/wiggle by the power of the scope and one tends to grab at the trigger as the crosshairs float by. You don't see this with irons they look dead on as a rule.

07 November 2011, 01:00

steph123

Shootaway really that shooting sucks! By the way, to me it looks like you are shooting at 25 yds/meters not 50! I am just a girl of 120 pounds and can shoot better than that, albeit I limit myself to the "wimpy" 458 Win mag.

07 November 2011, 01:20

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Terms like under an inch at 50 mean nothing since there is no mention of the age of the bore or the conditions it was subjected to and the type of bullets used.I am sure the quality of Michael's rifles are a reflection of the type of hunters who bought them. like Lion Hunter

1. No need to mention those variables when it is shooting that well

2. You to might find some changes if you would learn how to clean a barrel properly.

3. Yes, good groups are a reflextion of the hunters using them. As are patterns called groups.

4. I saw the video of the gut shot buff-by one shootaway

SSR

07 November 2011, 02:19

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by steph123:
Shootaway really that shooting sucks! By the way, to me it looks like you are shooting at 25 yds/meters not 50! I am just a girl of 120 pounds and can shoot better than that, albeit I limit myself to the "wimpy" 458 Win mag.

Yeah right.Keep on dreaming.

07 November 2011, 16:07

ozhunter

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Infact last time Oz posted a picture of the old lion he shot with open sights it had a bullet hole through the gut.

I'm not sure this is necessary but in fact the bullet went precisely where aimed and was recovered in the chest with massive hart lung damage and no gut damage

but I like your persistence and fact you do test your rifles.

07 November 2011, 16:12

ozhunter

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
You should be able to put almost every round in a 4 inch circle or less at 50 yards with any DG rifle, you may need to shoot something in the brain to save your beacon..Keep working on it, it will come about.

I would first determine the accuracy of the gun on a bench rest at 50 and 100 yards, then begin an offhand practice session..The goal should be a 3 or 4 inch 5 shot group offhand at 50 yards shot pretty fast before muscle strain sets in..

The go to point shooting at 25 yards without the use of sights, you will be surprised how accurate this can be and two shots in a quarter size group is very possible with a modicum of practice..

Additionally I have found this much easier to accomplish with iron sights as opposed to any scope..I THINK this is because scope magnifies the wabble/wiggle by the power of the scope and one tends to grab at the trigger as the crosshairs float by. You don't see this with irons they look dead on as a rule.

I think you would be best to take Atkinson's advice for he rarely offers BS.
What is BS is your attitude when someone give good advise and the fact you are so persistent in believing rifle can be shot out so easy. That picture of a group from my 425 is what can easily be achieved by most open sighted clapped out old big bores let alone one a few years old. Clean or not.

07 November 2011, 18:59

Bwana Nderobo

I have to agree with what Atkinson says also. Maybe if the rifle is giving you that much trouble, you may consider having it restocked to fit you better. Changing the shooting technique is fine at the range, but usually goes out the window in the game fields. Good luck.

07 November 2011, 19:15

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by ozhunter:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
You should be able to put almost every round in a 4 inch circle or less at 50 yards with any DG rifle, you may need to shoot something in the brain to save your beacon..Keep working on it, it will come about.

I would first determine the accuracy of the gun on a bench rest at 50 and 100 yards, then begin an offhand practice session..The goal should be a 3 or 4 inch 5 shot group offhand at 50 yards shot pretty fast before muscle strain sets in..

The go to point shooting at 25 yards without the use of sights, you will be surprised how accurate this can be and two shots in a quarter size group is very possible with a modicum of practice..

Additionally I have found this much easier to accomplish with iron sights as opposed to any scope..I THINK this is because scope magnifies the wabble/wiggle by the power of the scope and one tends to grab at the trigger as the crosshairs float by. You don't see this with irons they look dead on as a rule.

I think you would be best to take Atkinson's advice for he rarely offers BS.
What is BS is your attitude when someone give good advise and the fact you are so persistent in believing rifle can be shot out so easy. That picture of a group from my 425 is what can easily be achieved by most open sighted clapped out old big bores let alone one a few years old. Clean or not.

07 November 2011, 20:46

Art S.

Let me say I am not a dangerous game hunter, health problems having reared their ugly head a long time ago, but I do shoot a lot and build a fair number of guns. Big bores account for a few of these, and I shoot them reasonably regularly. They all shoot much better on average than the whole lot of 70 or so rifles I own. I currently have, two 458 Winnies, a 425WR, a 450-400, a 375, s 45-70 in a No 1 I load up, a 416 taylor, and three 9.3x74's. I have several heavy medium bores. All these, without exception, shoot into essentially one hole at 25 yards, and all less than 3/4" at 50 yds. The targets you keep showing for this Lott are extraordinarily bad. Either something is wrong, or your shooting is at fault. Have someone else shoot the gun off the bench at 50 yds and find out. Over the last year or whatever, none of the theories you have put forth for bad performance have any ring of possibility. This latest target should be no hope for joy. Whatever the new shooting style, stop using it.

07 November 2011, 21:45

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Art S.:
Let me say I am not a dangerous game hunter, health problems having reared their ugly head a long time ago, but I do shoot a lot and build a fair number of guns. Big bores account for a few of these, and I shoot them reasonably regularly. They all shoot much better on average than the whole lot of 70 or so rifles I own. I currently have, two 458 Winnies, a 425WR, a 450-400, a 375, s 45-70 in a No 1 I load up, a 416 taylor, and three 9.3x74's. I have several heavy medium bores. All these, without exception, shoot into essentially one hole at 25 yards, and all less than 3/4" at 50 yds. The targets you keep showing for this Lott are extraordinarily bad. Either something is wrong, or your shooting is at fault. Have someone else shoot the gun off the bench at 50 yds and find out. Over the last year or whatever, none of the theories you have put forth for bad performance have any ring of possibility. This latest target should be no hope for joy. Whatever the new shooting style, stop using it.

07 November 2011, 22:09

temmi

quote:
Originally posted by steph123:
Shootaway really that shooting sucks! By the way, to me it looks like you are shooting at 25 yds/meters not 50! I am just a girl of 120 pounds and can shoot better than that, albeit I limit myself to the "wimpy" 458 Win mag.

I wish you could talk my Daughter-in-laws into shooting any rifle… much less a 458Win!

So cool

08 November 2011, 00:23

shootaway

For those of you who are really interested in open sight big bore shooting,I will try to get a video of me shooting using this new style next time out.I will also include a video demonstration of this technique.As for the target I posted,I think that it is good shooting.There are 7 of the 11 shots in the 2 inch round circle.This, offhand at 50yds from a lott that shoots 2-4 inches off the bench.Some say that it wasn't 50 yards and that it doesn't shoot that bad from the bench even though they were not their and never fired the rifle? Most here say that all the shots should be in the center

, but have never shown us a demonstration of this incredible talent.

08 November 2011, 00:37

michael458

I would not own a rifle that would not shoot any better than 2-4 inches off the bench. Especially a bolt action rifle. It would have hit the road a long long time ago.

Michael

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.

08 November 2011, 00:49

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
I would not own a rifle that would not shoot any better than 2-4 inches off the bench. Especially a bolt action rifle. It would have hit the road a long long time ago.

Michael

Michael,any factory rifle I owned was extremely accurate out of the box,including big bores.They all eventually lose their accuracy and shoot 2-4 inch groups.Two to four inch groups depending on how clean the bore is, is OK for offhand practise at 50 yds.Why should I stop using it?

08 November 2011, 00:59

michael458

Shootaway, you clean your big bores? Hmmmmm? If my rifles won't shoot 3 rounds in the same hole at 50, I don't have a use for them. I have many big bores that a cleaning brush has never been down them, but they have only had 500 to 700 rounds down some of them, barely broken in. I have a few with well over a 1000 rounds and never been cleaned. Big bores are just not that sensitive and finicky, at least mine are not. Maybe you are cleaning too much? Maybe you just need a Winchester M70. Yes, I am sure of it, You need a Winchester, all your issues would go away.

Michael

08 November 2011, 01:06

shootaway

I have no issues because I know rifles! I know what they do and why they do it! I am not in the dark like you,Michael.

08 November 2011, 01:07

GeorgeS

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
There are 7 of the 11 shots in the 2 inch round circle.

George,

That circle is four inches in diameter.

GeorgeS

08 November 2011, 01:16

shootaway

but it has a 2 inch radius so I call it a 2 inch round circle

08 November 2011, 01:26

GeorgeS

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
but it has a 2 inch radius so I call it a 2 inch round circle

Calling it a 2 inch round circle doesn't make it one.

George

08 November 2011, 01:30

shootaway

It's a 4 inch wide circle.

08 November 2011, 02:59

chuck375

It's kind of the reverse male thing. When we moved back to Colorado in 96, we stayed at these cute little townhomes while our house was being built. There was a sweet attractive Irish American girl named Kate who lived next door. One morning I went out and there was 4" of snow on the ground, she said "Hi, I can't believe it snowed a foot last night!" I said, "Kate, men have been lying to you ..."

08 November 2011, 05:04

Bwana Nderobo

"Only accurate rifles are interesting." -Col. Townsend Whelen

08 November 2011, 05:05

Todd Williams

Being somewhat new to this forum, a few weeks ago, on another thread, I criticized LionHunter for "Bitch Slapping" ShootAway for a simple comment he made concerning bullet weights.

Now I understand. LionHunter, please accept my apologies.

08 November 2011, 05:15

Bwana Nderobo

08 November 2011, 05:52

doubledown

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
but it has a 2 inch radius so I call it a 2 inch round circle

Calling it a 2 inch round circle doesn't make it one.

George

All these years I have been shooting at targets, I thought they were OVAL?

08 November 2011, 05:58

Todd Williams

Here's the really scary part. Using ShootAway's logic on the 4" circle being a 2" circle, his rifle that shoots a 2-4 inch group at 50 yards is really shooting a 4-8 inch group!

No wonder his target looks like my shotgun when I pattern my Turkey loads!