I am looking at one of these and the guy says this is the Czech. action. Who were the different makers of actions for this rifle and what is the difference? He says it will do minute of angle groups.
Thanks,
Terry

"The guy" is misreading the marking on the side of the action. Did the same thing myself once . The actions were made in the old Yugoslavia and he's right about the accuracy. What he didn't say is that these things seem to have the fastest barrels around. We haven't figured out why, exactly but I get over 2700 fps behind a 300-gr. Nosler PT with no strain or sign of pressure. The load isn't even that heavy. Go figure. Drawbacks? The safety is a trigger block so you will want to replace it with an M70 style. PME makes one. Also, the bolt handle is one of the ugliest. Still and all, they are a great rifle. I have one and am thinking of getting another to make up the Perfect Global Pair.

Terry, everything Oldsarge told you is true, I have two of these rifles chambered for 375 H&H. Why two?,well I have one in a synthetic stock for hunting in Alaska's insesant rain, and one in Walnut to use in Africa. Both are equiped with Mod 70 type safeties, both are mounted with Luepold 1.5-5X20 scopes, held on by WARNE QD rings & bases, Both have iron sights. If I were going to buy them today I would probably spring for the TALLY rings, and mounts, but I have had zero trouble out of the WARNES. They return to zero every time. When I go to Alaska instead of takeing an extra rifle, I simply takes the rings and scope off the other one as a back-up.

I don't think for the dollar spent you can't beat a Whitworth African express rifle if you go ahead, and make the mods that I mention. You can, in fact spend more money without bettering yourself! With a safety, a little glass, and if you hunt Alaska a glass stock, good QD rings & bases, and quality scope you can get away for a very paltry sum, much lower than you will pay fora lot of the rifles that are not as good.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Were these made anywhere besides Yugoslavia that you know of ? It seems to me that this action was made in a couple of places but I can't remember. Old timers disease I guess. That's interesting about the safety. I had one of the Mark X's in a 300 Win. at one time and it was a good old action. Back in the 70's a person could buy a Mark X or a Santa Barbara action (or barreled action) for fairly cheap and build a custom stock for it. My father in law had a nice 6mm in a Santa Barbara barreled action that was a real shooter.
This 375HH has a low power variable Redfield scope on it--I think he said 1X5. I'm thinking it might be a 1X4. I'm not sure about the eye relief ( I've been smacked between the eye's by more Redfields than anything) on this but it might not be bad for the 375. I'll have to check this out. I think it has been glass bedded but I would definetly get the safety .
Thanks for the info,
Terry

No only in Yugoslavia. They were imported through Alexandria VA. To each his own I kind of like the bolt handle.

KBI is supposed to start importing them under the Charles Daly name, they're listing complete rifles in a couple of my latest dealer catalogs. They were made in a factory in Yugoslavia and imported by Interarms until Yugoslavia fell into war and production ceased. The factory is reopened but they couldn't sell to the U.S. because of U.N. sanctions against yugoslavia prohibiting trade. Now that yugoslavia has handed over Milosavich to the U.N. the sanctions have been lifted and since interarms doesn't exist any more KBI is importing them. I've also heard barreled actions and actions alone are going to be imported when they get up to speed, also a stainless steel version. They're the same as the interarms Mark X but will have Charles Daly stamped on them instead.

I owned Viscount, Mark X and the Whitworth Safari Models by Zastava of Yugoslavia. They were all well worth the money. I still think the Whitworth was the best looking English style sporter ever offered at such a price.
Very accurate and very fast of barrel, as mentioned above. Using IMR-4350 or WW 760, 2,600+ fps with the 300 grainers was routine.

The MARK X action is made only in Yugoslovia, and I'm not sure about the Interarms MK-X rifle,(ALASKAN) but the "WHITEWORTH" African Express in 375 H&H, and 458 Win Mag, with Island express sights uses the MK-X action but the rifles are made in ENGLAND, and was imported by Interarms. The Mk-X magnum action is identical to the FN commercial Mauser action except for the safety, and trigger. Even scope base for the MK-x Mag action are for the FN Mauser.

It is not unusual, for an action to be made by another company, or even in another country, than the brand name on the completed rifle. All the best name makers of bolt rifles in the UK are made on Mauser actions, mostly FNs or Brevex, either made in Germany, Yugoslovia, Austria, or Belgium. The "Santa Barbra" action is not a Mauser, but a Bastardized combination of features from two,or three different action types. These actions were made in, I believe California, but were not too well accepted by the shooting community, and were not made long. The rummer was, the Santa Barbra was not well heat treated, and hense were not good candidates for high chamber pressure.

Interarms sold barreled actions on the Mk-x action , but only in the standard chamberings,or ALASKAN model, not the mag action,the Mag has only been sold as completed rifles. The Mag action is a 375 H&H length action, and the barrel has a recoil lug, about 5" out on the barrel. I hope KBI sells the Magnum barreled actions, and in the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, and adds the 416 Rem mag. When they do I'll be sending my order!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

New Mark X's from KBI? Now that's good news, at least from the buyer's point of view. Our beloved Mark X's and Whitworths keep going up in price. Supply and demand sort of thing, I suppose.

Mac,
Your statement about action length surprises me. Mine is marked "Whitworth" and it is a true magnum length action but I got it as a semi-custom job from Paul Jaeger back when they were a branch of Dunn's. I can't help but believe that they were using barreled actions because it doesn't make good business to buy a whole rifle when you're going to rework it with new stock, etc. Odd.

OldSarge, the Whitworth Action can be sold to anyone who has an arms import license. Jaeger built rifles on many NEW actions. They even built an O/U double rifle on new Ruger Redwing actions that was furnished to them with fitted mono-block. Anson&deeley actions have been founished to many people in the white for makeing rifles.
Jaeger made many things from the time they were in Jenkin Town, PA, and after they moved to Tenn, with Dunns, so it doesn't surprize me your rifle is a Jaeger, yet marked WHITWORTH. Does it have the Interarms stamp on it as well? If not it was probably was imported streight to Jaeger, if it does, then they could have bought them from WHITWORTH. It would be interesting to find out exactly how these two companies got together. Knowing what I know about Jaeger, nothing would surprize me!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Yes . . . It's marked with both the Whitworth AND Interarms names and logos on the receiver and labeled THE AFRICAN by Paul Jaeger on the barrel. I love it. My wife is on orders to bury it with me. Who knows? I may need it.

I believe some of these rifles were built on Yugo actions and put together in Manchester, others (later ones) built entirely in Yugoslavia until the war.

I also recall reading something about a fire at the plant, don't know if it had to do with the war.

I, too am looking forward to the new run.

Boltman--What calibers and configurations are listed in your dealer catalog?

John

John Frazer - This is also my recollection.
I had thought all actions and barreled actions were made in Yugo by Zastava and came in via an exclusive arrangement with Interarms, including the Whitworths, by way of Manchester.

John Frazer,

My catalog shows this:

Charles Daly Field Grade Mauser bolt action rifle, matte blue finish mauser 98 action with side safety, fully adj. trigger, claw extractor, hinged floor plate, 22" matte finish BBL (24" BBL on 7m mag &300 win mag), black checkered synthetic stock with cheek piece, recoil pad, sling swivel studs.

Calibers 22-250,243,25-06,270,308,30-06,7mm rem mag,300 win mag.

Matte stainless steel, same specs as above with stainless steel barrel.

Superior grade mini-mauser bolt action rifle mauser 98 short action with side safety, fully adj. trigger, claw etractor hinged floor plate, walnut stock, rubber recoil pad, studs, 18.1" hi-polished blue barrel

calibers 22 hornet, 223 rem, 7.62x39, 223 rem left hand.

No mention in the catalog of a .375 H&H length action or a stainless steel action. I spoke to a lady at KBI a few months back and she told me they were going to sell actions and barreled actions as well. She also said the action would be produced in stainless. In my catalog they're priced very reasonably, $299 for the blued finish, but they only come with plastic stocks. Hopefully this is just the beginning and they'll come out with more options as production ramps up.

I hope they broaden the selection quickly as I can't honestly justify any of the calibers listed.

I want an all-stainless .338 Win. Mag. or .35 Whelen, a blued .375 H&H, and a blued 6.5x55 or 7x57.

Wonder how much the barreled actions will cost ...

John

Can the Whitworth .458 win mag be opened up to a Lott? If so is it a minimal job or does it involve extensive work.
Ralph

Ralph, you will need the 375 H&H length magazine box, or bottom mettel. Some feeding tweeking may be needed as well. I had a 458 Lott re-barreled on a 375 H&H Whitworth African express rifle, and nothing was done to the action other than rebarrel, and chambering! It worked like a charm.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Thanks Mac,
Are the whitworth .458 and .375 actions the same length?
Ralph

Yes I believe they are the same length,with only the bottom metel and mag box being different. If so,the screw spaceing is the same. If you rebarrel don't forget to put a recoil lug on the bottom of the new barrel. If you start with the 458 Win Mag, the lug will already be there, and all that is needed is to open up the stock for the 375 H&H magazine box, and the feed rails may need opening as well in front of the box. Mine was a 375 H&H so none of this was needed. I used NECG barrel band front sight, and barrel mounted sling swivel.

I don't have one that started life as a 458 to measure, but maybe Custom stocks can inlighten you!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Ralph,
The 458 Whitworth is different from the 375 action. The action screws are in the same place, and the overall length of the action is the same, but the feed ramp area would have to be shortened, opening up the action in the forward direction, as well as some opening up of the ejection port. Just replacing the magazine box will not do it.

I had a 458 WM Whitworth barreled action converted to 458 Lott with no other changes. It is a single shot Lott and Magazine repeater 458 WM. I stuck it in a Brown Precision stock and put a KDF brake on it. Just for fun. I also kept a 458 Whitworth Express Rifle unaltered, except to have its amazinglingly nice wood given a good oil finish. I like 'em both.

I had a Whitworth action barreled to 450 Barnes Supreme, which is an Ackley equivalent.

It is better to use the 375 H&H action for a 458 Lott. Some gunsmiths refuse to open one up in the front, for good reason. Let the factory have any liability for weakening an action. And with all the extra work and expense of the bottom metal, it is cheaper to use the 375 action anyway.

What this tells us is that the 375 H&H length Whitworth is a weakened (opened up in the front) short magnum action? Hey, they are still OK in my book. They are strong enough in either form.

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

Thanks Mac & RAB,
Think I'll go ahead and buy it anyway as it's in 100% condition with dies brass and bullets.
Ralph

Old Sarge and Mac,
All Whitworths are standard lenth actions..The Magnums are completely openned up in front and this is not considered a good thing, but I have never heard of one developing headspace or blowing up, soooo much for gunsmith theory...

They will develope headpace plenty quick if you convert one to a RUM or 7 STW or any other hi-intensity round....

I have built a lot of Custom big bores on them but I always cold welded the front back up and opened them up in the rear, requiring a new magazine, surface gound the actions and they sure were nice....

All actions were yugo built, the whitworths originally were put together in Manchester England, as I understand it.

The new Chas. Daley actions are reputed to be very rough and this is creating a problem that is supposedly being attended to.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
I agree with everything you say in your post above. However, you did not acknowledge the distinction between the "short magnum" and "long magnum" actions that exist with the Whitworth Express Rifle.

All the Whitworth Yugoslavian actions were 30-06/8X57 length based, as is the standard Mauser 98. At least they had enough sense to not open up the front of the 458 Winchester Magnum actions in their Express Rifles.

Just splittin' hairs.

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

On the subject of Mauser actions being opened up in the front.

Some of the old Southgate Weatherbys were built on FN Mauser actions and they were opened up entirely in the front.

My preferance is as much as possible to the rear but somehow they held up OK with the 300 Weatherby cartridges. At least the few I examined did.

RA,
Go back and measure, I believe all Whitworths are std. openned up in front..The 458 requires little if any openning as it is a short magnum...

Craftsman,
Weatherby dropped the Mauser and designed a new action for this very reason..the openned up Mausers rebelled with headspace problems, from time to time, Roy Weatherby told me this so I have to except it as fact.

As much as I love the Mauser it is not a good canidate for such rounds as the 7 STW, 300 Wby or any full lenth HI-INTENSITY rounds etc. when openned in front...

It seems to handle the 375, 458 etc. without proplems as I have never heard of a problem with a Whitworth, which have very good steel and wonderful barrels by the way.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Craftsman,

I know a smith who used to work for Wby in California in the late 50's and 60's. He said that they got 300 weatherbys back all the time with the lugs set back, so they pulled off the barrel and stock, slapped them on another receiver, and sent the package back to the customer. It seemed to be quite a regular problem. Then again, Roy liked pushing the limit.

Ray

I have an FN mauser that is factory magnum length set up in 7mm stw. My load is 80.0 H4831 behind a 140 nosler ballistic tip. It shoots great and flattens deer. By the way, that is a Layne Simpson load.

Am I in danger of ruining the action?

500
I believe it is an openned up standard lenth FN, if it was openned in back your OK, if opened in front look out, it WILL develope headspace..Rebarrel it to a 375...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
I have been certain of this since 1985. Just to humor you I got out my Mark X Whitworth Express in (A) 375 H&H and (B) 458 Winchester. I also got out my calipers.

Rifle A has a magazine box of 3.74".
Rifle B has a magazine box of 3.40".

Rifle A has the feed ramp undercut and the magazine box extended forward.

Rifle A has a semicircular milling cut on the top of the receiver ring and another similar cut on the front of the ejection port (two separate cuts) to facilitate loading and ejecting the loaded rounds.

Rifle B has no such cuts into the feed ramp or the receiver ring on top or in the ejection port.

Rifle B has a shorter magazine box, not just a sheet metal filler plug as in the Winchester and Remington, which do use the full length action for both short and long magnums.

Just looking at Rifles A and B externally, with bolt closed, they appear the same if you ignore the milling of the back side of the front receiver ring, on the top and right side of the ejection port. Open the bolt and you can look in and see the shortened feed ramp on the 375 action (A), which has been opened forward.

They are the same action except the 375 action is opened forward. The 458 is not opened up at all except in the bolt face and feed rails, when compared to the standard Model 98 Mauser.

The Mark X action differs from the milsurp Mausers only in metallurgy, safety mechanism (the Mark X is a two-position sliding side safety), and trigger mechanism (single stage adjustable in the Mark X), and of course the thumb cut in the left side of the action for stripper clip loading, which the Mark X lacks.

O.K.?

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

RA,
That is exactly what I said the Whitworths in 375 H&H are opened up in front (feed ramp)...They are all standard lenth actions that have been modified...Are we at odds on this? Doesn't appear that way to me.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

No, Ray, you were saying that all the Whitworth/Mark X magnum actions were opened up. All the 375 H&H length magnums are. However, the 458 Win. Mag. action in the Whitworth Express/Mark X is not opened length wise, neither fore nor aft. A minor point.

I know the economy actions. How about the expensive ones? We need some help with the weights of the high dollar CRF actions on the thread over in the gunsmithing forum, if you happen to have a Dakota or Brevex lying around to weigh. Granite mountain? Johansen? Is that spelled right?

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

RA,
We are on different thinking levels here, and I repeat that we are not in differences...

458's are short magnum and one must open them up at the feed ramp and on the sides to accomodate feeding and I believe they cut .040 from the ramp, which does not weaken the action, I can do that with my fingernail!! Also metal is removed in order for thoes big 45 cal. bullets to feed, the rails need to be openned a bit also, same applies to the 338 to a lesser extent...All I'm saying is you have a basic 30-06 action to start with in all Mk10 Mausers...then the actions are modified to the cartridge, in order for them to feed properly..

If I had a 458 Whitworth, I would open it up in the back so as to allow it to accomodate more powder by seating bullet out, which is my main complaint with the standard 458, or better yet open it up for a 458 Lott perhaps....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

O.K., Ray, we have come to agreement, on this point. I can't wait to find something else to quibble over!

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB