45-70 Original Springfield Trap Door?

25 August 2003, 17:04

Rich Jake

I'm posting this question for a friend of mine who ownes a 45-70 Original Springfield Trap door. He was trying to find out from people who may have one of these if the Ultramax 405 Grain Round Nose is safe to shoot in the above posted gun?? Any help or info would be appreciated. Thanks for the help in advance.
Rich Jake

26 August 2003, 01:31

Brent

I really couldn't say much about that cartridge, but I certainly would not shoot it. The trapdoor was and still is meant to be shot with a heavily compressed load of black powder and a cast bullet. There is simply no point to shooting anything else. Even if the gun does not blow up, the barrel will erode quickly, making it a small crime to burn out the few still cherry trapdoor bores out there.

Shoot black and be happy.
Brent

26 August 2003, 01:47

475Guy

I'm not familiar with the Ultramax bullet or load. These trap doors were low pressure rifles that are limited to level 1 pressures and loads. Keep 400's at 1100 f/s and under. [Cool]

26 August 2003, 01:48

Borealis Bob

If the Ultramax is loaded to give original blackpowder performance, e.g. approx. 1100-1200 fps, then it might be safe. At least in very limited shooting. The trapdoor design was the weakest of the blackpowder cartridge rifles, so beware.

These old rifles (and the new replicas ) tend to shoot much better with blackpowder topped with lead. If neither of you is into handloading he can start out cheaply with a Lee handpress. If no blackpowder is available locally use Pyrodex.

A trapdoor that is in good enough condition to shoot should be treated like the treasure it is.

[ 08-25-2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Borealis Bob ]

26 August 2003, 08:47

scot

405 Grain Round Nose is safe to shoot in the above posted gun??

The wimpy "cowboy" load, right. "CB45701" It looks very good to me, a lead 405 at only 1100pfs,.....perfect. You might call them to be sure.

27 August 2003, 09:53

Rich Jake

scot
Yeah that's the one, I may call or email the manufacturer & see what their opinion is on it being used in such a firearm.
Rich Jake

27 August 2003, 01:48

jeffeosso

whoa ho mister telephone...

blackpowder is, was, and will always be MORE damaging to barrels than most modern powders, partily from "blasting" at VERY fast and hot burn rates and partily from the corrosive nature of BP (not subs) it self.

the 45/70 trapdoor is listed as safe to 1400... And if you can load a PROPER bullet at those pressures 28k, you can shoot it... notice i said CAN.. not should...

you'll find that it will just love 405 rems at 1300... every one of them does...

btw, 1100fps is too damn close to subsonic in some places... at sealevel, it's about 931f/s... at 7000ft i think it's about 1150.... and you do NOT want your bullets crossing the transonic barrier outside of either your barrel or beyound (in) your target.

jeffe

27 August 2003, 06:19

Trapdoor

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
you'll find that it will just love 405 rems at 1300... every one of them does...

That is what I have found......

I get my screen name from an 1873...well, actually three of them, so I have shot them "some."

27 August 2003, 07:11

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
whoa ho mister telephone...

btw, 1100fps is too damn close to subsonic in some places... at sealevel, it's about 931f/s... at 7000ft i think it's about 1150.... and you do NOT want your bullets crossing the transonic barrier outside of either your barrel or beyound (in) your target.

jeffe

Jeffe, the transonic velocities are definitely challenging, but any rifle worth it's salt will be shooting across that boundary. My big Sharps starts out at about 1350 and plunges down from there, depending on which bullet, to the extent that is it subsonic at around 200-250 yds. But that does not preclude shooting out to 500 meters or even 1000 for which there are organized competitions to do just that.

Brent

27 August 2003, 08:05

Quail Wing

quote:
Originally posted by Rich Jake:
I'm posting this question for a friend of mine who ownes a 45-70 Original Springfield Trap door. He was trying to find out from people who may have one of these if the Ultramax 405 Grain Round Nose is safe to shoot in the above posted gun?? Any help or info would be appreciated. Thanks for the help in advance.
Rich Jake

Rich,

You do not say what condition the gun is in. Has it been looked over by a competent gunsmith? What collectable condition is it in?

Assuming you do not have a gun in 99% condition and of extraordinary collector value and that the gun has been found safe to shoot by a gunsmith...

Read the ammo box very carefully. Does it say it is safe in trapdoor? Call the maker and ask.

Do not make up some full loads with Black Powder and run off to the range. Start with about 55 grains of Black Powder and work your way up. The same reloading rules that apply to smokeless, apply to Black Powder.

For a light load with smokeless that is fun to shoot, try about 10 grains of Red Dot behind a 300 grain lead slug. This will approximate the "cowboy" loads but is much easier on the wallet.

Again, do not fire anything out of the gun until a gunsmith gives the nod.

Regards,

Pete

27 August 2003, 11:03

Ross

Spence and Pat Wolf's book, _Loading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine_ is the best $20.00 you'll spend to enhance your appreciation for your gun.
http://www.the45-70book.com is Pat's site, Wolf's Western Traders.
Cheers from Gray's California
Ross

27 August 2003, 12:52

Rich Jake

I appreciate the responses so far. The gun is with a casual friend. I don't know exactly how good or bad a shape it's in. I only know of it in conversation with the gentleman. I have no idea if it has been examined by a smith of any kind. I'll have to pass on what you all said.
Rich Jake

28 August 2003, 03:24

MacD37

Just load it with 70 grs of black powder, under a 405 gr cast bullet, with large rifle mag primer, and tie it to an old tire and fire it with a long string, to make sure it doesn't come apart. Leave the somkeless powder to smokeless powder rifles. The Springfield trap door rifles are converted balck powder muzzle loaders, and are not safe with modern 45-70 ammo, IMO! New reproductions made of modern steel, are weak as well but will handle more that the origenals, but not by much! [Eek!]

28 August 2003, 03:34

Brent

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:

Mac - I'm no trapdoor expert, but nearly all trapdoors were made as cartridge guns from the get go. Only the very very earliest were made from muzzleloaders. Of those that were made as cartridge rifles at the start, there are several different configurations that have different degrees of strength.

While I don't know a lot about them, I do know they were not all created equal. An 84 Trapdoor is a pretty fine rifle and plenty strong for it's intended purpose. The 88 is similar and the 73 is not quite as good as I recall, but that mostly do to poorer sights.

Brent

31 August 2003, 03:34

MacD37

Regardless if the rifle was made as a cartridge rifle from the start, it is still a converted black powder muzzle loader. The only step that was removed is makeing of the muzzle loader then converting it. The design is weak, and that is a fact. Even the NEW H&R reproductions, which are made of modern steel, not the mild iron of the origenals, are not suited to very high pressure. NO, origenal is suitable for modern smokeless powder loads!

What is worng with simply useing the rifle as it was intended, that is, after you determine it will not come apart, with an origenal black powder load. I consider telling anyone to use smokeless powder factory loads in a black powder firearm, to be a little on the negligent side, unless thos loads do not develope more pressure than the black powder load! Nobody in his right mind would load a black powder muzzleloader with smokeless powder! that being said why would he do so with one converted to a cartridge, The conversions were for BLACK POWDER cartridges as well! This goes for all conversions. the Colt cap&ball pistols were converted to cartridges useing black powder, not smokeless! The use of smokeless powder in these old cartridge rifles is a practice which should be approched with a large degree of caution! You may do as it pleases you, but I for one, will not reccomend the practice to others! Especially with an origenal Trapdoor Springfield! [Roll Eyes]

03 September 2003, 04:01

Trapdoor

This is the first time I have found myself in disagreement with Mac.

Smokeless powder in a Trapdoor is nothing to be scared of...if done properly. But then, "if done properly" applies to everything.

If smokeless in a Trapdoor was a catostrophic event, my father would have blown countless Trapdoors up over the past forty years.

If you want to shoot black powder, do it. If you want to shoot smokeless, do it. Aint no big thang! If it were a big deal, I doubt that the reloading manuals would publish data specifically for Trapdoors.

[ 09-02-2003, 19:33: Message edited by: Trapdoor ]