I thought I would post this in order not to interrupt another thread on Custom barrels...

It's a serious question that needs to be aired for the benifit of thoes building African rifles with all the bells and whistles.

I see some comments on the use of heat (solder) for putting hardware on rifle barrels, such as 1/4 ribs, sights, and swivels...

I believe this to be a legitamate practice and further believe, when done properly has no effect what so ever on accuracy, or barrel movement. (walking of groups etc.)

The problems that crop up from this practice, and they definately do, are not from the practice but from the practitioner applying too much heat to get the job done. Sometimes the barrel is at fault and probably did that before the hardware was mounted or may have taken place during the turning of the barrel or a hundred other reasons.

good 44-40 solder only requires 400 degrees of heat and when done right will last 10 lifetimes, back that up with a screw or two if one thinks that necessary and it will last forever...

Sometimes a problem arises when some poor dumb gunsmith blues the gun in a hot tank and thats a no no, but you'd be surprised how many "gunsmiths" will do this.

Factory, Custom Gunsmiths, Holland and Holland, Rigby, Westley Richards, have been using solder for over a 100 years with success....

A cut intregal barrel would be much preferred by most true dyed in the wool African gun cranks, self included as I love good workmanship, but is it necessary? I normally give myself a little room to run on such questions, but on this one I think I'll just jump in feet first and say an intregal barrels usefullness and practicality is mostly in the mind of the owner, and a big chunk of change foolishly spent, but then I suppose you could have the same case for a Custom stock, rust blue or whatever, Oh Well, guess I've painted myself into the corner.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

You raise a good question.

I know that any machining done on a barrel after it is rifled affects the bore. How much it affects the bore is a function of how well the barrel was stress relieved before rifling, and how much stress was put on the barrel by the rifling process. I think Bill Thompson gave a very good explanation of this one time. I don't know how significant these changes are.

I also know that different materials shrink by different amounts as they cool. The solder/lug/barrel boundary is a good place for this to happen - but again I don't know how significant the stresses are.

I do know that ham-handed 'smiths (or amateurs like me) can do a bad job using the same materials that a pro uses -- but get very bad results. The first factory barrel on my 416Rem M70 had a dog-leg in it at the barrel recoil lug, so I have some idea of how bad it can be.

I suspect that with soldering, as with welding, excessive heat and rapid cooling can create and trap a lot of stress. I don't know what the minimum stress would be, or how much it would affect accuracy.

With the costs of the sight bases, lugs and the gunsmith's installation costs, it might not turn out to be much more expensive to get them all integral - if it can be done automatically rather than by hand.

Who knows?
Don

The best method of soldering goodies to the barrel of a rifle that I have found is the method used to solder together double rifles used by vertually all the top makers. After all things to be soldered are tined, along with opposing surfaces, and positioned on the barrel with a coating of flux between the barrel, and sight ramp, quarter rib, etc. the barrel, and all the pieces are wrapped with iron wire along with pieces of solder in the proper places to follow the flux into the joint. The whole barrel is soldered at one time, with the ensertion of bore size, barrel length rods heated to soldering temp. These rods are changed often to keep the heat up, and steadly riseing to soldering temp of the barrel. By heating the barrel from end to end, slowly, the barrel it's self becomes a soldering iron. Once the soldering is completed, the rods are left in the barrel, and allowed to cool off slowly. Since you are not heating only one spot, or one side of the barrel, but the whole thing on all sides, it creates less stress and warpage. The barrel is then carded, and rust blued. Takes time and skill, but isn't that what a classic African rifle is all about?

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Ray,
I am glad to hear that opinion, as I like the properly soldered AND screw attached fixtures on rifle barrels. I would love to have some integral setups on barrels, but I really don't think they produce any significant improvement over the properly executed soldered and screwed setups. For all the time and money involved in the integral stuff, it is really just a benefit in the mind of the beholder. In fact, with the more pronounced asymetries possibly involved, the integral barrels might be more tempermental in the accuracy department. And, if you pay that much and end up with mediocre accuracy by chance, what an investment!

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

The best solder to use for almost all gunsmithing applications today is marketed by Brownells called Force 44, it is an alloy of mostly tin and silver with only a small amount of lead, requires approximately 400 degrees of heat, is many times as strong as standard 50/50 solder and because it contains almost no lead it is not affected by hot caustic bluing salts.

I think barrel warpage and damage in times past has come mainly from people using the true silver solder sometimes referred to as silver brazing which which is almost as strong as welding but requires approximately 900 to 1050 degrees f in heat, that turns steel dull red! It will certainly warp things drastically and will cause scale in the bore of the gun.

Barrels are routinely stress relieved at soldering temperatures so as long as you heat slowly, evenly, and cool slowly you are OK.

I hope you'll forgive my temerity in using a non big bore rifle to illustrate my experience.

My custom 6.5x55 has a shihlen barrel machined on a lathe to a nearly straight profile (to fit a previously inletted stock), has been hot tank blued and has scope mounts silver soldered to the action.

Apparently it shouldn't shoot and yet it can consistantly do sub .5MOA for 3 shots, is stunningly beautiful and has mounts so strong you could drop it from a stand and it would retain it's zero.

I guess there are exceptions to every rule, I sure hope my 7x57 which I'm due to take delivery of this week and which is identical to the 6.5 is another exception. I'll let you know and if I could work out how to send you pictures of this engineering dog's dinner.

I think RA about said it all...My experience has been that intregal barrels don't shoot quite as well as std. barrels with hardware properly soldered on as described by Mac to a a certain extent, tinned and soldered it's quick and efficient and takes 400 degrees and thats not a lot of heat...the use of silver solder will definately cause problems as high heat is required...I also don't believe that Octogon barrels shoot as well as round barrels...I don't know if these accuracy differences are sugnificant or not and particularly in a big bore rifle..

I do know that in a finished rifle an intragal barrel will demand a hell of a lot more money, as much as $5000. more in the finished product...for that kind of money I would rather buy another double rifle, I think..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com