Holland and Holland

19 May 2003, 18:13

quattro77

Holland and Holland

Hey,
Last Friday, Holland and Holland had a presentation of their rifles and shotguns at our rifle range. We shoot very nice shotguns and rifles. The recoil of a .500 NE double I shoot was not so hard, the rifle was very heavy.we shoot also the brand new H&H round, the .400 H&H magnum, ina M98 with scope. It kicks very hard, like a .416 Rigby.The scope mount was not very modern, then it was installed into the front and rear bridge of the receiver with dovetails.
The cardridges:
The .500 brass was made from bertram and one the side was printed " Loaded by Wolfgang Romey". Price : approx. 13.- Euro per round.
The .400 H&H havenï¿½t any markes about caliber and factory at the bottom, but I mean itï¿½s also loaded by WR.
The price for the dougle was nearly 80000.- Euro and for the M98 23000.- Euro, with a date of delivery about approx. 9 years [Eek!]

.
The over and under shotguns are made by Perazzi of italy. The side by side are made in England.
The rifles and shotguns are very nice, but I mean there are many very good and nice rifles with modern scope mounts at the market, for a little less money, as the H&H rifles.

20 May 2003, 09:16

<JOHAN>

quote:
Originally posted by quattro77:

The over and under shotguns are made by Perazzi of italy

Well
I bet they were great. are you sure they were made by Perazzi?

I rather have a real perazzi than an H&H stamped perazzi.

WR uses Hormeber brass for most of his exotic ammo, just in case you wanted to know. [Big Grin]

20 May 2003, 02:53

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by quattro77:
The price for the dougle was nearly 80000.- Euro and for the M98 23000.- Euro, with a date of delivery about approx. 9 years

Are you serious about the 9 years? 9 years between order and delivery?

20 May 2003, 04:09

ALF

20 May 2003, 07:09

fla3006

For much less money and time, I think most Guild members as well as some less heralded smiths here in the U.S. can do as well or better, at least with bolt guns.

20 May 2003, 09:40

ALF

20 May 2003, 09:41

500grains

I will take a guild gun over an H&H bolt gun any day. I don't think the H&H guys really understand either bolt actions or ballistics. But they seem to know how to regulate a sidelock pretty well.

20 May 2003, 18:05

quattro77

The date of delivery and the made in italy of the over and under shotguns, told me the dealers from H&H and the dealers of the generaldealer here in germany, Frankonia. [Roll Eyes]

21 May 2003, 23:59

mehulkamdar

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF:

At this point in time H&H is the only outfit that actually makes shotgun barrles in the UK.

ALF,

Just a doubt - don't Purdey make the entire shotgun in house at their factory?

22 May 2003, 03:25

ALF

22 May 2003, 17:57

quattro77

I asked the dealers about the over and under shotguns with BOXLOCK. The barrels and receicer with boxlock are made in italy, the stocks, engravings and blueing are made by H&H.
The sidelock over and under is totally made by H&H.

24 May 2003, 14:47

ALF

29 May 2003, 01:48

Pete E

500grains,

quote:
I don't think the H&H guys really understand either bolt actions or ballistics...

Can you explain that statement?

And can you please name the US equivilant to H&H in terms of position in the market,product desirability, reputation, length of time they have been in business?

Regards,

Pete

29 May 2003, 03:38

ALF

29 May 2003, 05:40

500grains

All one has to do is look at the rather shoddy and irrelevant 400 H&H and 465 H&H offerings to know they are quite off base.

29 May 2003, 05:48

<Axel>

Pete E, while I agree with your statements H&H isn't an old gunmaker as gunmakers go. Winchester is older, so is Remington and Colt. Westely Richards, C&H, Purdey, are all older and British, with at least one on par with H&H. Beretta is the oldest, but there are others Continental makers almost as old as Beretta, which are all older than any of the British makers. I can go on and on.

500grains, actually the 465 H&H should be removed as it is nothing more than a recontoured belted RIGBY!

Axel

29 May 2003, 06:04

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Axel:

500grains, actually the 465 H&H should be removed as it is nothing more than a recontoured belted RIGBY!

Axel

Pardon? The 456 H&H is just a junior 458 lott and the 400 H&H is just a belted 404 Jeff. The consumer is not served by dangerous game rifles for which ammo will be exceedingly rare. Nor is there any ballistic advantage offered by either cartridge. They are pure marketing hype.

Then compare an H&H bolt gun to a good guild gun here in the U.S. or to a Reimer Johannsen bolt gun costing 1/3 as much, and one will see that many others do it better than H&H.

[ 05-28-2003, 21:06: Message edited by: 500grains ]

29 May 2003, 06:14

Paul H

500 grs,

I think H&H made a good decision for H&H in developing the 400 and 465. They cater to a clientel that is willing to dole out large quantities of pounds stirling for H&H products, so having larger bores with the H&H name will sell more H&H guns.

These rounds will likely never be chambered by other makers, and you'll likely never see loaded ammo for them in the states, or reloading dies for that matter. It doesn't mean that they won't be a success for H&H and their limited but high end market.

29 May 2003, 06:33

HunterJim

So is the .375 H&H "shoddy and irrelevant" too?

It is obviously neither.

We have not seen what the .400 H&H and .465 H&H will do in the field over time, but since the terminal ballistics of these cartridge will be very similar to the .450/.400 and the .465 NE respectively, then I expect it will be very good indeed.

jim dodd

29 May 2003, 08:12

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
500 grs,

I think H&H made a good decision for H&H in developing the 400 and 465. They cater to a clientel that is willing to dole out large quantities of pounds stirling for H&H products, so having larger bores with the H&H name will sell more H&H guns.

These rounds will likely never be chambered by other makers, and you'll likely never see loaded ammo for them in the states, or reloading dies for that matter. It doesn't mean that they won't be a success for H&H and their limited but high end market.

YES, it is marketing hype only.

29 May 2003, 08:16

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by HunterJim:

We have not seen what the .400 H&H and .465 H&H will do in the field over time, but since the terminal ballistics of these cartridge will be very similar to the .450/.400 and the .465 NE respectively, then I expect it will be very good indeed.

jim dodd

Irrelevant, since there are already a 404 jeff and 458 lott that more than serve this need. The new H&H cartridges add nothing.

29 May 2003, 11:04

Pete E

Axel,

You can't compare H&H to any of the American makers you mentioned as they cater for a completely different market.

500grains,

H&H are merely carrying on a tradition of introducing "new" "own brand" calibers which is how the British gun trade worked for years. Think how many classic cartridges are virtual duplicates of one an another? Some gained wide spread acceptance, some fell by the way side for various reasons and are now the stuff of collectors dreams while yet others kept a small but loyal following. Its all colour to our history...
As to the quality comparisson, you may well be correct, but people are also buying a little bit of "history"/ "romance". After all a CZ550 or a Mod 70 can be made to work every bit as good as these top end marques so in the strictest sense there is no need for them at all...I will never be able to afford a new H&H, but I am glad they are out there continuing a dying British tradition and adding a touch of colour to our hunting/shooting herritage..

Peter

[ 05-29-2003, 02:07: Message edited by: Pete E ]

02 June 2003, 16:47

Atkinson

One thing for sure and that is the old Hollands and WR etc. worked 100%, I wish I could say that about a lot of American gunbuilders...A few do great work, but no better...Some of the finest examples of the gunmakers art have come from Holland and Holland, and they never go down in value as many American gunmakers rifles will the minute you shoot them, I prefer their stock design to the American classic...I put them in a class with double rifles...and I am an American stock maker, and a metal smith of sorts.

The British have been making big bores for Africa for years and they learned a thing or two some of us would be well to copy.

It works both ways, judge the gun as an individual, both countries produce good and bad examples of the gunmakers art....

02 June 2003, 17:11

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:
Originally posted by HunterJim:

We have not seen what the .400 H&H and .465 H&H will do in the field over time, but since the terminal ballistics of these cartridge will be very similar to the .450/.400 and the .465 NE respectively, then I expect it will be very good indeed.

jim dodd
Irrelevant, since there are already a 404 jeff and 458 lott that more than serve this need. The new H&H cartridges add nothing.

500

If redundancy of ballistics are an issue than we can get rid of most of the our cartridges. Why do we need any of the cartridges developed since 1925 since they all simply imitate already existing cartridges.

AXEL

When exactly was Winchester founded?

02 June 2003, 23:44

Pete E

The only American company which seems to have a similar herritage/mystique I could think of is Griffin & Howe (sp?). I know very little of the company other than seeing there name crop up from time to time associated with high end rifles and mounts. Are they still in business? Were they gunmakers or retailers like Army & Navy???

03 June 2003, 02:22

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Pete E:
H&H are merely carrying on a tradition of introducing "new" "own brand" calibers which is how the British gun trade worked for years.

Yes, the new cartridges are marketing hype, not a substantive improvement over any cartridge that is already out there.

03 June 2003, 11:26

Pete E

500grains,

Ok, lets put the ball in your court. H&H comission you to come up with two new cartridges "around" the .400 and .465 caliber for DG. They want something "new" or perhaps different is a better description, to hang "H&H" on the end of....So what would you come up with?

Regards,

Pete

03 June 2003, 15:11

500grains

If they want a 40 cal, I would have 3 suggestions:

1. 416 rigby (but H&H does not make oversized actions)

2. 416 remington/hoffman

3. 404 jeffery.

If they want a 45 cal, I would suggest either:

1. 458 lott

2. 470 capstick

If H&H has to have its name on it, they can just steal one of the above designs (like Remington did to Hoffman) and stamp H&H on it.

The fact is that H&H is 100 years late in the 40 cal arena, and 50 years late in the 45 cal arena. If they were innovators, then they would have something useful with their name on it rather than another "me too" cartridge.

[ 06-03-2003, 06:13: Message edited by: 500grains ]

03 June 2003, 18:36

NitroX

I don't understand. Didn't Holland & Holland invent the original .375 H&H Magnum, on which (virtually) all of the latter magnum belted cartridges were based ?

So what is wrong with them designing two new bolt action cartridges to match two excellent double rifle cartridges - the .411 and the .468 (.400 and .465) ?

To me it seems to be going quite out on a limb to introduce two cartridges not being a .416 or a .458 ? Hardly could be called copying or duplicating existing cartridges.

And if duplication is a bad thing why do we have in .458
-

.458 Win Mag
.460 Wby Mag
.450 Dakota
.458 Lott
.458 Watts
.458 3"
etc

And why on Earth would H&H want to "adopt" a cartridge with the name "Capstick" on it ? Now that would be inviting ridicule. [Roll Eyes]