The Accurate Reloading Forums
Is the 470 Capstick better than the 458 Lott
01 February 2004, 17:20
Mike375Is the 470 Capstick better than the 458 Lott
Now that there are lighter weight pistol bullets that fit the 470, which I think go up to 400 grains has the 470 Capstick become a viable big bore for those who want something a bit different while at the same time having some plinking and varmint style bullets available. I think Hornady is also doing gas checks for 470.
The 470 Capstick should also be able to hit the 2300 f/s with 500 grainers a bit easier than the 458 Lott.
So for those who would obtain a 458 Lott by rebarreling an existing rifle is the 470 Capstick a more interesting option than the 458 Lott while at the same time maximising the power available from the H&H size case and offering cheap plinking/varmint bullets and gas checks for cast bullets?
Mike
01 February 2004, 17:52
475GuyBoth calibers have been used with revolver bullets for awhile. In the Lott, the biggest revolver cast bullet that I am aware of is 380 grains. I know of very few 45 Colt or 454 revolvers that could utilize that big of a bullet.
In the 470, 475 Linebaugh cast bullets have been as heavy as 460 grains. All these weights vary as to the casting mix. Of course you know that with such cavernous cases as the Lott and the Capstick, medium doses of faster burning powders are the ticket.
As to rebarreling for a Capstick, it depends on whether I get that itch. When I go up in caliber in a boltgun, I'm contemplating the 470 Mbogo and the 500 AHR instead.
01 February 2004, 22:45
PCMike,
I reckon the lott is still the most practical big bore out there as far as wanting something with more punch than say the .458 winnie or .375 H&H it is just simply quite often a new chamber for an existing .458 win mag rifle. I also think the 45/70 style bullets that are available also make the .458 lott more versatile than the .470 capstick, with the capstick unless you can re-bore you need a new barrel any way you cut it.
The lott = options and versatility.
02 February 2004, 00:23
Mike375PC
From your posting:
it is just simply quite often a new chamber for an existing .458 win mag rifle.I did say...for those who would be rebarreling....
I was thinking of people with 300 Winchester, 375 H&H etc. who want to have a 40 calibre plus.
Mike
02 February 2004, 02:46
ScottSMike,
To refresh your memory. A first hand account of the 470 Capstick, as told by our very own moderator, George:
George's woes with the 375 and 470 on Buff! At a minimum better not hunt with those crappy bullets that George used
Although me personally, I will continue to use that brand in my 500.
Scott
02 February 2004, 07:39
PCMike,
I never read it properly, I still feel that a .458 whatever will be the way they lean.
For gods sake do not plant the .470 capstick idea in my head
02 February 2004, 08:05
AtkinsonWell, George should have known a bullet designed for 2150 would be a bit soft at 2350 or whatever, especially on the spine, it's amazing that it held together....
If you use a 470 Capstick then use solids and it will serve you very well on anything...It has the 450 Lott beat as it is equal in every way but has a larger cross section and cross section is important in a DGR, wheather its necessary in this class of cartridge is certainly questionalbe....
02 February 2004, 08:23
Rob01A little off topic but I ran accross some 470 Capstick brass on Ebay for $15 for 20 pieces. Here's a link to the auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=365769538802 February 2004, 08:26
Mike375PC,
What about a 470 Capstick for cheap and crappy brass (therefore ideal for spotlight shooting and roo chasing) and a 470 Mbogo.
Think of it this way. If you have a 450 Rigby that almost demands that the rifle be made a certain way. A 460 Wby on something like a CZ just all seems wrong.
Mike
02 February 2004, 10:45
475GuyOh, by the way, I only use 400 grainers in my 45-70's. I only use revolver bullets in both of my 458's for sub Mach I for quiet loads and are almost to POI of my big loads.
02 February 2004, 18:39
500grainsI think the 470 cap is a great caliber and I have 2 of them. The 458 lott is more practical because it is more common, although the cartridges are very similar - kind of like comparing the 30-06 and 8mm-06. Winchester's custom shop has chambered for the 470 capstick, but that has not made it especially popular. But in my book it is top notch.
02 February 2004, 23:44
Mike375500 grains,
I seem to remember reading at the time the 470 Capstick was introduced the case wall diameter was reduced (from the inside)to form a type of shoulder. Was/is that true.
Mike
03 February 2004, 06:20
GeorgeSRay,
If I knew that Woodleigh's softs would only work at 2100-2200fps, I wouldn't have bothered to use them in my .470 Capstick at 2380fps; the Woodleigh solids worked well.
Woodleigh claims that their bullets will work at various impact velocities; who knew that another 200fps would be beyond their design limitations? Certainly none of our resident 'armchair experts'.
In any case, no real harm done. The buffalo died and it was fun while it lasted!
George
03 February 2004, 08:39
500grainsMike, it's not a case wall diameter issue. Let's start with the 458 win mag and 458 lott. Both have a continuous conical taper from the belt to the case mouth. In contrast, the capstick has a continuous conical taper from the belt to about where the base of the bullet should be. Then the case walls are parallel to each other from the base of the bullet region to the case mouth. Two things seem to result from thi: (i) greater accuracy, and (ii) easier to reload without creating a slight bulge in the case at the base of the bullet.
03 February 2004, 12:24
Mike375500,
So you could use 458 Lott brass or necked up 375s etc for 470 Capstick?
As I said above I was previously under the impression that 470 Capsticks were thinned from the inside and as a result 458 Lott/375 brass may have been to thick in the neck section.
Thus for the reloader and with the coming of the pistol bullets which I think go to 400 grains and are as heavy as the 45/70 bullets and with Hornady gas checks in 470 the 470 Capstick is probably a better calibre than the 458 Lott!!
Mike
03 February 2004, 12:57
Paul HMike,
While there are 400 gr .475” pistol bullets available, they are not available at every corner gun store. Pricing isn’t even that much better, $11/50 for the 400 gr .475” speer vs $15/50 for the 350 gr speer .458” Note that the pistol bullet is just plated, vs a jacket for the .458” rifle bullet, and suitable for use on game up to 2500 fps. Not to mention that the choices and availability of proper .475” rifle bullets is very limited, compared to the huge selection in .458”.
I have 5 .475” molds, round ball, 310 gr, 400 gr, 400 gr gc, and 460 gr gc not to mention the sizing die and gas checks. Even with that available to me, I still think the 458 Lott is a superior choice. You can either buy a ready to roll Lott for not a whole lot of money, or have a 458 win mag re-chambered at an also relatively reasonable expense. A 470 Capstick on the other hand will require a new barrel and chambering, as well as expensive custom reloading dies.
If I was going to the trouble and expense of re-barreling, and I wanted a .475” rifle, my thought would be the Ruger #1 in a 470 NE would be way to go. If you’re going to the trouble and expense of building something bigger than a 458 Lott on a bolt gun, you might as well step up to a 500 A-sq. Bigger than .458” simply isn’t practicle, and the 50 caliber is the next reasonable step IMHO.
03 February 2004, 13:23
500grainsMike, if you want to fireform, you can use .375 H&H, .375 Weatherby or .458 Lott to make 470 capstick brass. I purchased a lifetime supply of HDS H&H length cylindrical brass, and a quick trip through the sizing die makes them perfect. In reality, the sizing die changes this cylindrical brass very little.
I have used both 400 grain Hornady and 400 grain speer pistol bullets in my 470 capstick. Thankfully, those bullets are much cheaper than Woodleighs. The accuracy of the pistol bullets is only so-so, doing about 2.5 inches at 100 yards. This is in contrast with 3 shots touching from most other bullets. To date I have not shot anything with the pistol bullets, but they should be explosive.
Cast lead bullets are also readily available, should I face both poverty and a plethora of varmints at the same time.
03 February 2004, 14:14
Mike375Paul and 500,
Paul as you know I am looking to something big and slow and at the same time very different to the Wbys that have been ordered.
500 Grains, as a by the way, Cast Bullets are not always about cheapness. I have been there before and it is like setting up for reloading only more so. One thing cast bullets do is to allow loads to be used that just don't seem to work as well with jacketed bullets.
It does appear that the 458 Lott is a better deal.
One of the things that is appealing to me about the 458 Lott and 470 Capstick is that I want at least one non factory custom rifle but at the same time a rifle/calibre that stands alone and does not need company as in a 375 needing a 300 H&H. Also I want a calibre that does not suffer because of the Wbys and at the same time the Wbys do not suffer because of that rifle/calibre.
Mike
04 February 2004, 19:45
PCMike,
I really like the lott and I think it is ver functional especially sense you have a love of the .458 bore at any rate it may be worth a look for you, you could have your beloved M70 as well mate.