325 grain or heavier 375 caliber bullets

06 February 2002, 17:05

HenryC470

Does the H&H case hold enough powder to start a 325 or 350 grain bullet at 2400 f.p.s.

Would an improved 375 cartridge do this?

How about the 375 RUM?

Are there such things as 325 or 350 grain 375 caliber bullets?

Does it make sense to you that a good way to improve the 375 H&H cartridge would be to load a heavier bullet (325 grains, sectional density = 0.330; or 350 grains, sectional density = 0.356!) at 2400 f.p.s. rather than pushing 300 grain bullets to 2800 f.p.s.

I'm not an expert on this, but some of you are. I'm given to understand (Kevin Robertson's book, "The Perfect Shot") that the problem, if there is one, with the 375 H&H cartridge is not insufficient velocity, but rather bullet failure related to excessive velocity.

A 375 H&H caliber rifle typically has a muzzle velocity 200 f.p.s. faster a .416 caliber or a .458 Lott caliber rifle. If a sectional density of 0.3 or better is desirable (again, Robertson) for shooting at thick skinned animals, the .375/300 grain bullet is marginal at 0.305. The .416/400 grain and .458/500 grain bullets have sectional densities of 0.330 and 0.341, respectively.

The 375's higher muzzle velocity may be useful for long shots, but Robertson thinks it causes solids to fail at the close ranges at which thick skinned dangerous animals are shot. The .375's bullet is a priori expected to penetrate less well than standard 40 and 45 caliber bullets on the basis of sectional density.

H.C.

07 February 2002, 00:31

<Norbert>

quote:
Does it make sense to you that a good way to improve the 375 H&H cartridge would be to load a heavier bullet (325 grains, sectional density = 0.330; or 350 grains, sectional density = 0.356!) at 2400 f.p.s. rather than pushing 300 grain bullets to 2800 f.p.s.

It makes sense and would push the .375 on par with the best penetrators as .458 500 gr at 2400 f/s. Unfortunately bullets are rather scarce on the market, esp. solids.
There is a 350 gr Woodleigh announced.
As a case I use .375 Weatherby, in case of emergency you can shoot .375 H&H cartridges.

07 February 2002, 02:04

<Hunting Max>

quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
[QUOTE]As a case I use .375 Weatherby, in case of emergency you can shoot .375 H&H cartridges.

Hello Norbert,

I am using also the .375 Weatherby case. Can you provide me some reloading dat for it.
Thanks.

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Guns can save lives - maybe yourï¿½s.
Max

07 February 2002, 08:25

Paul H

My personal opinion is, once you have enough weight to produce consistant exits for a caliber, adding weight, and hence reducing velocity will decrease the effectiveness of the round. The only way to increase killing effect is to increase both bullet weight and diamter. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

If you want more performence then the 375 offers, get a 40 caliber. If you can put up with the recoil of an improved 375, then you might as well get improved terminal performance for that recoil, the answer, 40 cal!

07 February 2002, 11:08

<Norbert>

Hunting Max,

I can, but please send me your e-mail address or other contact possibilities.
Norbert

07 February 2002, 18:40

Atkinson

HenryC470,
The beauty of a 350 gr. 375 is it stops the awsome penitration of the 375 and the 350's will get about 2350 to 2400 FPS in my 375...

It is the perfect bullet for herd shooting buffalo, wherein the ideal bullet will come to rest fully expanded on the off side skin..the 350 RN Woodleigh is designed to do just that.. The 350 Simi pointed Woodleigh is a real hell bender for penitration...

I like the 350 gr. bullets in a 375...I think it will put the dog up there a little closer to the 40 calibers..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

07 February 2002, 19:10

Socrates

Ray:
Great idea. What about 350-400 grain 375 cast slugs, at between 2200-2400?
gs

12 February 2002, 11:35

Atkinson

I don't know much about cast bullets in these big bores, but I suspect a big heavy very hard cast flat point bullet in a big bore at over 2100 FPS would be at least minimum for Buffalo and at 2200 should be just that much better...provided they don't crack apart on the heavy bones, which cast bullets tend to do at the higher velocity, or so I've been told...Apparantly they work better at 1300 to 1400 and thats not enough to keep one out of trouble sometimes....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

12 February 2002, 11:50

Socrates

Ray:
I've heard, from relable sources, that if you properly cast heavy bullets, they hold up cracking bones etc. up to 2400 fps.

They need to be cast, if I remember correctly, with about 21-22 parts antimony, or some such very hard casting material, I've never used, and one part lead.

This gives them a very hard surface, but, with enough bonding that they don't break up on impact.

I could get more specifics, when I have the molds, and I'm making the bullets...

13 February 2002, 10:58

Atkinson

Socrates,
Have these "reliable" sources shot through Buffalo shoulders before and if so how many??

I know one Bullet making outfit that makes a world of claims based on a couple of bulls.

I don't anyone who has a world of experience shooting buffalo with cast bullets...I don't think they last long enough to get that experience...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

17 February 2002, 09:41

Socrates

One of the sources was Paco Kelly.
I posted that earlier.

He said, at the time, that was pretty much all anyone used.

When did the copper jacketed solid takeover the market?

Try these links:
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/page2.htm

I have the twin to this gun, numbers 22 and 23, that I bought from Ross Seyfried, and, I spent about a 1/2 hour on the phone with him discussing the hunt, and the kill.

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/page3.htm

Here's an intresting comparision of different rounds penetration, and how well they held together.

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm

Worth reading from the above site:
"Concentrating on the handgun loads, we note that the trend towards higher penetration with heavier bullets, given similar bullet construction, is almost universal while velocity didnï¿½t have nearly the same effect. In both the .475 and .500, large increases in velocity netted relatively small increases in penetration. With the 420 grain LBT in the .475, a 27% velocity increase yielded a 17 ï¿½% increase in penetration. With the .500 and the 435 LBT, a 27% increase in velocity produced a paltry 12% penetration gain. While these gains may be of great importance in certain cases, I think the added recoil will cause some of us to pause for reflection. Again considering the .500, a 14% increase in bullet weight from 435 to 495 resulted in a startling 37% gain in penetration. I am really looking forward to experimenting with the Cast Performance 525 grain LBTLFNGC."

I also posted, and asked, John Taffin, Paco Kelly, and a few other gun legends about lead bullets, and their experience with them, hence my posts content.

Paco killed a rather large elephant with I believe a cast 9 mm, or something like that.
I posted his reponse, but, too many people here refused to read or respond, perhaps because they have little idea what used to be used, prior to their birth.

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

17 February 2002, 09:43

Socrates

Ray:
You might have a look at the Cast Bullets Forum here.

This issue has been discussed...

Contrary to your comments, they actually support your comments about the increased effect of caliber, bullet weight, and the little effect added velocity appears to have.

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

16 February 2002, 22:20

Socrates

Another thread, and posts about hunters using cast bullets, for backup:
"That has never happened to me with a 458 win mag or the 458 Lott. The 458 diameter rifles are much less expensive to shoot and have far more popular components. It's the main reason I choose the Lott. It's the most popular Rifle among the PH's I work with. You met and hunted with Dave and Pottie (I think). Both have 22" barreled Lott's now, both shoot 450 grain hard cast bullets. Both have been guiding Dangerous game in Mozambique and Zimbabwe for 15 years now. Deon moved to the Jeffery instead, although he packs the 375HH for plains game only hunts. I have been bringing them ammo for the Jeffery for several years now. It cost a fortune to buy loaded Jeffery ammo!"

Dangerous game guides, that use 450 hard cast bullets.

Do you know these guys???

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

17 February 2002, 00:20

Gerard

The unpredictable terminal performance of cast lead at rifle speeds makes it less desireable for use in rifles. The tensile strengths of lead alloys are too low. If it is wild exictement that motivates you to hunt, shoot large animals with big horns and big teeth with cast bullets at rifle speeds

Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't and you don't know when.

At handgun speeds it is a whole different ballgame as the tensile strengths of some lead alloys are up to the forces imposed at these lower speeds. The penetration test in the link above, although completely inconclusive, already shows that above 1700 fps deformation of cast lead becomes a significant factor. Asymetrical deformation allows bullets to turn in the target and that is bad.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

17 February 2002, 08:30

Socrates

Gerard:
I know you are correct.
I guess I'm just trying to say that it was an industry standard for a long time, and, if done properly, is reliable.

I have no doubt the lower velocities of the Nitro rounds helped the use of very heavy, cast bullets, since, that was pretty much all there was.

As a bullet maker, I am sure you are aware of the problems with jacketed 458 Win mag factory loaded rounds. I guess you can have problems with poorly made solids, or factory rounds as well. At least with hard cast lead
bullets, you are the one that is making them, so, if the bullet blows up because you didn't cast it right, it's your own fault, not Winchesters, etc.

Besides, some of these companies are out of their minds. 5 dollars for a Tungsten core bullet?????

I suppose if you can afford to get to, and hunt in Africa, you have enough money to waste on such things.

I, for one, perfer more sensible pricing, and function.

Still, after Saeeds's success with the Barnes X, and having looked at your bullets, your products would be in my rifles, if I came down.

Great work.

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

19 February 2002, 20:36

Socrates

Gerard:
Do you have 375 bullets that are around 350 grains?

I just put a deposit down on a 375, CZ 550 25 inch barrel, open sites, and, if things go right, hope to have it in time for the Northern California Big bore shooting.

Course, I would love to have it bedded prior to that, but, our local gunsmith is so busy, it's probably not going to happen...

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

13 July 2008, 04:47

chuck375

Ray what's your opinion of driving the 350g Woodleigh Protected Points to 2500 fps in a 375 Weatherby? Woodleigh lists their velocity range as up to 2500 fps, in your opinion will they over expand?

Thanks,

Chuck

14 July 2008, 23:26

Atkinson

Chuck,
I don't know, but I would bet the 350 gr. PP would work fine. I doubt the RN is tough enough for any shot, but on "broadside" off the shoulder, I think it would work and do a lot of internal damage, you would get a lot of expansion with the RN, but expansion is destruction and results in fast kills.

I think the PP would work just fine at 2500 FPS. and it would be my choice..

BUT, I have only used them at just a tad under 2400 FPS..Try them and back your play with some of Gerards GS Custom flat nose solids.