Well thanks to Robgunbuilder and jeffeosso (although I only used Rob's recommendations this time) I got out to a range last evening and tried out 4 loads (5 of each)

All loads used Bertram 500 Jeffery brass
Fed 215 primers
Barnes 570 grain "X" bullet

Load #1
Per Robgunbuilder
128.5 grains of IMR4831 with a load density ~114%
2251
2244
2268
2269
2249
average of the string - 2256 fps
All five shots experienced difficult extraction!

Load#2
128.5 grains of IMR7828 with a load density of ~112%
2161
2171
2153
2165
2180
average of the string - 2166 fps
Three of the five shots experienced difficult extraction!

Load#3
129.0 grains of H4831 with a load density of ~110%
2236
2229
2226
2241
2238
average of the string - 2234 fps
Three of the five shots experienced difficult extraction!

Load#4
102 grains of IMR4064 with a load density of ~ 93%
2203
2229
2226
2236
2229
Average of the string - 2225 fps
All five shots experienced difficult extraction!

The most accurate loads were loads 1 and 4. I was able to print 2" groups with these two loads at 50 yards. Loads 2 and 3 were only SLIGHTLY less accurate. Of course it could have just been me. I am beginning to believe jeffeosso was correct in that the 535 grain bullet IS THE bullet for this cartridge. While these loads were accurate they were also ALL over the top pressure wise! If it isn't pressure why is the extraction difficult? I mean I know of no other explanation, anyone have any ideas.

Thanks again to you gentlemen for the help with the loads. I am going to try some 535 grain pills next. This shooting session eliminated ALL my Barnes 570 grain pills.

ASS_CLOWN

Thank you for posting
I will soon get my hands on some Impala Bullets 370 grn.
http://www.impalabullets.co.za/specification.htm

Cheers,

Andr�

AC- Many of us have experienced sticky extraction with Bertram brass. Remember the 585 Nyati issues that surfaced a year ago? Get some Horneber brass before you conclude pressure is the problem. Make sure you know what your chambers COL is and your .010 under that also make sure that your loaded round is .030 off the lands! Bertram brass IMHO is usually a bit long and needs to be trimmed. All the stuff I have for the 500AHR is way too long and it's really just basic 500 Jeff brass from Bertram. The load I gave you most definately does not stick in my 500 AHR even with Bertram brass. One final question, if you load a live cartridge and then try and eject it is there some hesitation on bolt lift or extraction?How much expansion is also occuring to your brass?Also look carefully at the fired brass for evidence of chamber irregularities. Sometimes a reamer will catch a chip and some smiths will try and polish this out. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Acerrosafe cast of you chamber is cheap easy and TELLS ALL!-Rob

Rob,

Jeffe said that he thought the 535 grain pills would be the best since that is what the cartridge was made for. I really am beginning to think he may be right. They oughta kick a tad less too, so that is another benefit!

I did measure the cases last night, but I don't have the numbers with me. The odd thing to me was the sticky cases measured the same as the non-sticky cases with a couple actually being smaller!

I cannot see anything wrong with the chamber, either by visible inspection of the chamber or witness marks left on the fired brass.

The chamber seems to be very concentric as measured around the fired cases, I cannot get a difference of more than 0.0002" and I am most likely not good enough with a set of micrometers to consistently measure to better than 0.0002" anyway.

Finally, I have no problems, whatsoever, chambering and extracting loaded cartridges. I only run into problems when I fire the darned things.

By the way, this thing kicks and good! How in the heck do you handle that 600 OK of your pushing a 900 grain bullet AT LEAST as fast as I am pushing a 570 grain pill???

You da MAN!

ASS_CLOWN

AC- Try my load with a 570 gr Woodleigh. While I still think it's most likely the Brass, I have had some high pressure problems in the past( with a 300 win mag) with Barnes X bullets in a chamber with no lead into the rifling. I still think a cerrosafe cast of your chamber and throat is a usefull thing to have as it will tell you exactly what you have and help diagnose the problem.A cerrosafe mold will show the exact length of the throat, and lead into the rifling. Is the problem sticky bolt lift or on secondary extraction? If it's sticky bolt lift I'd be inclined to think high pressure and if it's on pulling the bolt back, I'd be inclined to think it's just the brass. By the way, If you re-insert a fired case does it still stick? Try a few different positions.-Rob

While I haven't used Bertram brass in my 500 Jeffrey, I have used it in my 350 Rigby, and agree with the comments that it is soft brass and gets sticky with loads that drop right out from good brass.

If you're interested, I might consider selling some of the Hornbear 500 Jeffrey brass I got as part of the group purchase. Drop me a pm.

AC -

Pursuant to our thread regarding the use of filler in doubles, would you like to try some XMP 5744 in that beast? It is the ideal test vehicle as it has a big capacity and a big bore, but must use overly slow powders to keep the case full. I have no idea what would be a starting load, but with this powder we could start at 50 grs and see if we make 1000 fps - the stuff will definitely ignite and burn well. If you can get to 2000 fps with it you will have made a big contribution to big bore shooting science!!

Robgunbuilder,

A fired case goes in and out easily! This is what has me stumped! I figured an overpressure load would go back in hard, it doesn't though. There are also, absolutely NO signs of pressure, in the classical sense, with the exception of the hard extraction. By the way, the bolt turns easy the first half or so, just gets hard when the extractor come up against the rim.

ASS_CLOWN

The extractor isn't binding is it? If the extractor hook isn't shaped properly for the rebatted rim of the jeff cartridge it may be forced out too far and drag on the action. This will feel like sticky extraction but isn't.-Rob

Scott,
try close the bolt on an empty chamber, drop the trigger, and see if it binds again... repeat a bunch of times..

the WITH A DUMMY....

jeffe

I'll try that after dinner, thanks!

Robgunbuilder, DigitalDan mentioned M60's cooking off ammo in Vietnam. He could not remember the whys or wherefores, and as I recall you carried one in Vietnam, did you ever experience any cook-offs with an M60? If you did, would you mind filling me in on the details? I just find it very interesting, and can't get it out of my head, I want to understand why it happens, you know.

Thanks again for all the help.

ASS_CLOWN

Robgunbuilder,

Here is a picture of one of the cases in the bolt. They all fit this way, that being completely flush on the bolt face. The extractor doesn't "push out" at all. When I chamber a round the extractor doesn't push out either. I am thinking this is because this was originally a Rigby, which has a thicker rim? Could be wrong. The rifle is not a power ejector, but I don't think that is all bad considering the price of this brass (harder to loose them you know when they only go a couple feet ).



I measured the cases here the are in the order I posted the loads.

128.5 grains of IMR4831
.6201 sticky
.6196 sticky
.6194 sticky
.6198 sticky
.620 sticky

128.5 grains of IMR7828
.6203 not sticky
.6201 sticky
.6195 sticky
.6196 not sticky
.6201 sticky

129 grains of H4831
.6194 sticky
.6198 not sticky
.6206 not sticky
.6197 sticky
.6199 sticky

102grains of IMR4064
.6196 sticky
.6195 sticky
.6198 sticky
.6202 sticky
.6205 sticky

You may be right about those Barnes bullets. I have had a terrible time with them in the 30-06. I ordered some 535 grain Woodleigh soft point this afternoon. I figured I would take both your and jeffeosso's advise and use Woodleigh and 535 grains. I think I will start with your 570 grain Woodleigh loads and see what happens.

If you can think of anything I appreciate the help.

ASS_CLOWN

AC-Well so much for the extractor theory! It's either the brass, the leade , the Barnes X bullets or something is binding somewhere! Just for haha's throw some dye chem on the bolt/extractor and see if anything is binding up. At least you can rule it out that way.

I had cook-offs with my M-16, twice with my M-60( as I remember) and most assuredly in a variety of air cooled Browning 1919's. When your barrel and chamber are glowing red hot ( a dull cherry as I remember) after a few hundred rounds in 30 seconds or so, in the early mornings( 1 to 2 am) in Vietnam cook- offs were a common problem. I personally never had a case blow although I heard that happened in the 1919 brownings on occasion.-Rob

All pure heat related, not due to firing pins getting stuck in the bolt. Those would be follow-thru's/slam fires a very different phenomenon.

Scott,
Can you show a pic of the primers? Your measurements are counterintuitive, in that some stickey are SMALLER than some nto sticky

:.6194 sticky
.6198 not sticky
.6206 not sticky"

leads me to think it's a mechanical problem, and might be a sear/trigger issue.. which Could re-occur if you cycled an empty case a couple times

jeffe

Robgunbuilder,

Thanks for all the information, it has been extremely helpful. I will work on getting a cast of the chamber, and some Horneber brass.

Jeffeosso, I did what you are suggesting, I used a fired case so the primer was already dented though does that matter? I resized as the cases last night so I don't have one to post a picture of. I will next time I take it out though, but I will be using the 535 grain Woodleigh SP.

ASS_CLOWN

Sticky extraction and Bertram brass go together like cigarettes and lung cancer. I wouldn't bother investigating any mechanical issues until changing to some brass other than Bertram (and Kynoch uses Bertram so beware...). If you cannot find Bertram brass, you can buy some Westley Richards ammo which is loaded by Romney who uses Horneber brass.



This Bertram brass issue is what makes the 500 AHR a dud caliber, since Bertram is the only maker, but you knew that because you have a 500 AHR...

Thanks for the reply Dan. I assume you meant Horneber in your post though, as in "WR uses Horneber"?



I explained the entire, unpleasant, 500 AHR situation before. I ordered one, it came to my FFL, but I had to sell it. I never completed the transaction, so legally I never actually "owned" it. I had paid for it, but I needed the money for bills, so my transfer FFL (who ended up NOT being my transfer FFL because he never transferred it to me but did manage to sell it on my behalf) sold the rifle on my behalf for the same fee he would have charged me for the transfer.



Clear as mud.



So to make a long, convoluted story short, I have NO experience with Bertram brass until the 500 Jeffery.



I am going to have one of the sticky and one of the non-sticky cases analyzed by a metallurgical lab, hopefully, and will try and figure out if there really is a material issue happening here. It just is so damned frustrating!



ASS_CLOWN

.

Alf,

What is the

Quote:

---

original spec velocity or bullet weight wise.

---

Would 2300 fps with a 535 grain bullet be correct?

ASS_CLOWN