More rounds or bigger cartridge????

20 June 2001, 07:23

I have always had this delima with a big bore bolt gun....School is still out for me on this and I bounce back and forth on it....

My 9.3x62 will hold 6 rounds with one in the barrel and my 416 holds 4 with one in the barrel....

I feel as much confidence with the 9.3 and the extra rounds as I do with the 416..and in a pride of Lions I would take the 9.3..

How do you feel about that?????

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

20 June 2001, 07:43

Nickudu

Sounds as though we need some quick shooting and as many shots as possible prior to reloading. I say the 9.3x62 is plenty for lion and the extra two shots could save your pastrami. A single, charging lion and I'd go the other way to swat him down big-time.

Nick

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 06-19-2001).]

20 June 2001, 07:52

RCHAPURA

I would have to use my 450 Watts. Four in the mag and one in the tube. Thanks to MR Blackburn.

20 June 2001, 08:39

Nickudu

Can't people read? Why can't we just answer the darn questions, as asked?

20 June 2001, 08:46

smallfry

You know as well as most Ray. Take the 9.3. The extra 2 may save your life. Where the lion(s) would be dangerous... at close range would you rather have a single-shot 416 for one mean lion or a double 9.3X74R? I would take the double thank you.Even with very well placed hits from the 416 lions often have plenty of wind-up-toy left in them to bite you back.
Just my 2 cents

20 June 2001, 10:57

<Norbert>

In any case I would take the 9.3, more rounds is often the better alternative. But I also have to look at the rifle. Right handed and left eyed, it is a problem to find a really quick reloading rifle. The only one suited for me is a Blaser R93.

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20 June 2001, 11:47

DB Bill

I guess I would take the .416 because lions scare the hell out of me but really...do you think you would have time for even 4 aimed shots let alone 6?

20 June 2001, 12:16

John S

If a whole pride of momma simbas want to come and bite your ass they will likely come all at once so having 5 or 7 shots makes no difference. Your behind is in line for a shredding either way because I doubt very seriously that any 2 men could knock over an entire pride of 5 or 6 enraged simbas. Stick with the 416 and leave the varmint rifle at home.

20 June 2001, 13:09

Mark

Ray, never having shot any lions personally, do you feel that the 416 is significantly better at stopping them? I would look at it that way. If experience has shown you a time or two when the 9.3 didn't work right away and you suspect the 416 would, then go with the 416, but my hunch is that the 9.3 works pretty much the same on lions as the 416 does (please correct me if I'm wrong here, I'd like to learn something too) so go with the extra capacity.

Now if you question was dealing with elephants or something like that, I could see this being a long drawn discussion. Again, I have no personal experience with african cats so please let me know if I'm missing something obvious. I'd also suspect the 9.3 might be a little easier to get back on target, if quick follow ups are a factor.

20 June 2001, 15:05

Atkinson

OK, to heck with the LIons, lets make it Elephants in mass or Buffalo in mass....

John,
I don't think the whole pride would come at once, that would be out of the ordinary, so a 9.3 could be handy in not reloading unless you had a big window of time....

I don't know the answer, but I feel the 9.3x62 is a capable round for any game mentioned, including elephant, but the 416 is just that much better, but the extra two rounds are a real plus and if you used a drop box magazine on the 9.3 you could load it on Sunday and be good til next weekend....Another factor is a brain shot is a brain shot and both calibers will work, maybe?

I've been in a couple of situations that got me to thinking along these high capacity vs. raw power situations...

Now we removed some of the varibles brought forth, what now??

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

20 June 2001, 15:35

<George Hoffman>

Ray,
I think I know how to solve your problem.
Build yourself a .416 using a Brno action. I think you can get 5 down and one in the chamber. Grin.
George

20 June 2001, 17:50

DB Bill

Having shot one buffalo and zero lions I still have an opinion. Before I shot my buff we were "up close and personal" on 5 or 6 instances to anywhere from 2 to 50 buffalo. On two of the occasions when we either backed away or the buff looked us over and trotted away and we were withing 10 yards,,,very thick stuff! My PH had a .416 and I had my .375 and neither time did I feel undergunned. It may seem foolish but I was confident enough in my ability to place a shot that I wasn't nervous.
Lions are a different story as we had 2 close encounters...1st was when we walked up to a "walk-in" blind one morning to check a heyena (?) bait and when it got light enogu to see there were 3 lions on it...a big male and 2 lioness. Bait was about 100 yards away with a ravine between us and it. One of the lioness noticed something and started to trot toward the blind with the other lioness and male right behind her. This was very early in the morning and still hard to see. The ravine was about 50 yards in front of the blind and only the 2 lioness came out directly in front of us...the male came out about 40 yards to the side and they walked up to about 335-40 yards of the very thin and flimsy blind and stared at us...they sat down, the rolled around, the lioness licked the male, he batted on of the lioness and roared and then they got up and walked away.I could have had a searchlight in my gut and no light would have shined out my butt...I was puckered!!!!! The 2nd time we got in amongst a pride trying to kill a bug bull buffalo and again we got very close. If I ever hunt lion I will have a .458 Lott for sure.....trust me I will.

20 June 2001, 19:24

Mark

Since you rephrased it a little, I'd go with the bigger capacity. Maybe it is because for whatever reason I've run out of bullets more than I have felt I was undergunned.

As I read you, it seems the question you are really asking is it better to go with more bullets in a capable caliber, or less bullets in a stopping round caliber, and if I remember you don't classify the 416 as a true stopping round.

20 June 2001, 20:51

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray
Ray,
George Hoffman had the answer I was intending for you also, as the Lott or the 450 Ackley in the Bruno CZ550 action will both hold five in the magazine and one in the chamber. So if you want six why not have a big six. On the other hand there will probably be two of you anyways and four should be fine. If you can get more than four aimed and fatal shots off before the situation changes, either for the good or the bad I would be surprised. If for the good it would make a hell of a story and if for the bad we wouldn't be discussing it. 470 Mbogo

21 June 2001, 01:52

Will

Ray:

Would have to agree will DB Bill, though I've been amongst buffalo with a 375 and felt plenty undergunned.

I don't think there is anyway a whole pride of lions will charge at the same time, more likely one. That brings up the question of doubles versus bolts, but leaving that alone...

Be it lions, buff, or elephants, I think horsepower is the best route, be it the 416 or larger. And as DB Bill says, he ain't hunting lions without a Lott, which I think is good advice.

I just don't see any reason to go less than a 416. Capacity wise, my CZ only holds three 416 Rigbys in the magazine, but the 458 will hold 5 (also, of course, 458 Lott).

Shooting something out of a blind or a buff 100 yards away is one thing, but a charge is another. Give me all the horsepower you got!!

21 June 2001, 02:01

smallfry

The reason Ray just doesnt pick the 416 is because he is talking about rifles he already owns, and one holds four the other holds six.

21 June 2001, 04:00

1894

Not only do you have more with the 9.3s you have more sight time to use them ie less muzzle jump making for more target aquisition time.

Dare I say (as someone who has never been to Africa) that it should be the same number as you allways use to prevent you ramming the bolt home on an empty chamber or stopping before you need to. In the situation where you need a lot of shots you will be on auto pilot and will just do what you've allways done.

21 June 2001, 04:11

DB Bill

RancherJack who sometomes posts here told a story at our recent SCI Chapter meeting about an experience with lions that was "interesting" to say the least. Maybe he will post the long story but the short version is he shot a male lion over bait late in the day but the remainder of the lions didn't go away and for some reason the radio they were using to contact the hunting vehicle didn't work. They were stuck for a long time in the dark with a lot of "cheeky" lions nearby. This went on until the truck finally drove up and collected everyone including the dead lion. I believe he had a .416 Weatherby. While listening to him tell it, I was wondering if a crew-served weapon would have been enough? Jack...if you read this why not tell us the entire story.

21 June 2001, 04:51

500grains

I would like to make an analogy for use in discussing shooting the big stuff, like buff and ele.

If you were fighting George Foreman, which of the following options would you prefer:

1. You can hit him as many times as you want, or

2. You can have Mike Tyson punch him for you ONCE.

Since I could probably punch George Foreman to the point of my own exhaustion without knocking him down, I would opt to have Mike Tyson pinch hit for me for a punch. A single heavy blow often has much more effect than the cumulative effect of many small blows.

That is my theory anyway. Consequently, I would go for the bigger cartridge rather than more rounds, on big stuff.

21 June 2001, 05:16

Atkinson

I'm just interrested in the different opinnions, based on my posts, concerning the two guns that I own...knowing full well gents that one could have a 500 Jefferys built with a 20 round clip......

In the real world you know I pack a 450-400-3" double named "Sweet Thang" and I can get 4 off faster than I can empty a bolt gun, except under pressure, then I drop a lot of bullets (grin)

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

21 June 2001, 05:47

Nickudu

When Zero Drift and I hunted the "LADO" together, many years back, we devised a technique that virtually eliminated the dropping rounds under duress. With a .475 No.2 shoved up each nostril, we found it an easy matter to meld a "flicking of the wrists" to dislodge the two fired casings with a "dipping of the head" to chamber the next pair.
We found this technique to be extremely reliable except on days with a high pollen count.

21 June 2001, 06:50

Will

Ray:

I thought you were this 450/400 & 404 Jeffery fanatic. Throw those other 2 in the trash, since the 404 will do everything the 416 will do. And the 404 has more horsepower than the 450/400, so problem solved.

Just throw the 416 my way.

21 June 2001, 07:06

Atkinson

I tried that but have you noticed the size of my nose, requires the 577 and the 600 is better and I can't take all that recoil...

Will,
Greedy, greedy...I have allready left thoes guns to Norbert to blow up...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

22 June 2001, 04:12

DB Bill

500 grains.....your analogy doesn't hold up because I wouldn't have someone else shooting the rifle for me. Just image if Mike Tyson hit George Foreman with your hand...probably break something.

22 June 2001, 04:31

<Peter Walker>

Ray, I'm figuring that if those animals are so blood thirsty that they won't turn off or avoid you after you've blasted four of their kin to the after life with your .416, two more rounds ain't gonna save you.

...Peter

22 June 2001, 14:33

Atkinson

Peter,
based on that advise, why would one even bother to reload?

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

23 June 2001, 04:39

<Peter Walker>

Ray

What is your .416? My Sako 75 holds 4 in the magazine and 1 in chamber for a total of 5. I think that if you could blast five of them it might turn the others, or slow them down enough to pick them off while feeding single rounds!!

...Peter

23 June 2001, 05:18

Atkinson

Ok you guys got me in a corner, I had better change this into a Bonzi Charge of armour plated polynesians...:0

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

23 June 2001, 16:54

DaveC

Ray,
The best that I can say is:
use the gun that you can shoot the fastest with the most accuracy.
If you can manage all 6 from the 9.3 better than you can 4 from the .416, than that is the choice. You probably know the drill, set up various targets at ranges from 30 to 5 yards (I haven't a clue here but I think you know what I an getting at) and whittle away at what you perceive as the closest threat (timed of course by a companion) and see what happens. If you run out of time while bullets are still in the gun, then it doesn't matter. You know more than I about how fast a lion can charge.
Otherwise, I would suggest that a GE 7.62 minigun be looking over your shoulder to keep the hoards at bay.

[This message has been edited by DaveC (edited 06-23-2001).]

23 June 2001, 19:45

DB Bill

Are those bare-breasted polynesians?

24 June 2001, 00:36

<Don G>

Hey,

My favorite dentist is a Polynesian!

What do you have against Polynesians?

I will turn you in to the Bill Clinton memorial board for Political Correctness!

They are a down-trodden minority and deserve our help, not ridicule.

Why next you'll be shooting at square kittens!

Don

24 June 2001, 00:50

Nickudu

Don,
With "A-Square" ammunition no less!

24 June 2001, 06:37

<Peter V>

Ray,

My working 458 lott takes one up the spout and 5 in the magazine, so far so good ... makes feel comfortable when surrounded and fresh outa trees...most I've ever had to use was 4 on 1 x stubborn buffalo.

I literally walked smack bang into two prides of lions near Matusodona in thick stuff a while back armed with nothing but a fishing rod ...don't ask, it's a long story; fortunately they were engrossed in a territorial dispute and more interested in each other than one sweaty pale fellow .... my neck hairs stood up straight as they roared about much to close for comfort ... kind of situation that had me wishing for a belt fed 416 or a bunch of guys that run slowwer than me!

Cheers

------------------

Peter
www.shafa.net
Shafa Safaris

24 June 2001, 07:56

Mark

quote:
Originally posted by Don G:
Hey,
My favorite dentist is a Polynesian!
What do you have against Polynesians?
<snip>
Don

Don,

If your polynesian dentist is female and works bare breasted, please post her work number here, I feel a toothache coming on...

25 June 2001, 15:57

Karl

Ray,
For buffalo I can only use the advice you gave on another thread last year in which you said the only way to stop them reliably up close in time is the brain shot. In this regard I can assume elephant would be the same. And hippo?

So from your own experience the rifle with greater capacity and recovery would be the obvious choice wouldn't it,(9.3) since power is a moot point with brainshots,(assuming the bullet has enough to get there of course).

Regards,
Karl.

25 June 2001, 19:34

aHunter

Norbert, I understand about the Blaser, but one of its deficiences is that it will hold only 3 rounds, and loading with a scope on it I consider to be difficult.

I presume from Your post that You do own one. Does anybody know:

How does the action hold up as long as, say a 98, a Win 70 or CZ, Tikka,...

How reliable is the action? Is there any plastic part in the trigger to replace occasionally as in earlier Blasers? How does it handle dust or grit?

Hope somebody jumps in.

Good shooting H

26 June 2001, 05:17

Atkinson

Karl,
I tend to agree with that, and I hate reloading under stress, except with a double.

I suppose there is no real answer to the question, it's mostly a personal thing and what "YOU" feel comfortable with...I feel pretty comfortable either way, as a matter of fact..Whatever action is chosen you can always get more 9.3's in it than you can 416 or bigger, with a drop box you could have probably 8 rounds of 9.3 ready and willing...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

03 July 2001, 06:49

MacD37

Ray, as per the origenal question, that is one of the problems with tracked lion. The chance of a multiple charge is high, when the pride is pressed. I have not personally hunted lion, but have come into close quarters with them on occasion. Like
Mikeinfla, the African lion scares hell out of me,and the reason he does is because of the chance of the multiple charge possibility. Unwounded, the young males, and the lioness'are the problem. This is the only place where I would rather have a bolt rifle over a double, for a stopper. Over bait, the bolt, or a double with a removable scope would be my choice. However, I don't think the two more rounds would be of any consiquince in the case of a multiple, because as someone already said, you will be lucky to get off four in a bolt rifle, no matter the chambering, so I would take the "POWER"!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 07-02-2001).]

03 July 2001, 14:46

Atkinson

Mac,
you make a good case for the bolt gun, I think??

I still might go with the double as I can get 4 off quicker than I can with a bolt gun, again I think?? I also like that double when things get to close to allow you time to work the bolt, been there and done that one....then again it might never get that cheeky if one had a large magazine capacity 9.3 x 62...Hmmmmmm?????

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

05 July 2001, 04:28

MacD37

Still undecided, I see!

I agree with you, I'd definetly rather have the double if we are dealing with two lions in a charge,or even three, but with more than three, I don't know! I too, can get off four "AIMED" shot faster with my 450/400 3"NE, or 500/450 NE, than I can with a 375 H&H bolt rifle. Sometimes, however, four will not stop one lion that has been gut shot, and is madder-n-hell, and means to show you who is in charge. Any thing larger, I might be a little slow on the 3rd shot in the double. My recoil recovery time with my 577 NE is not lightening fast, though I would not be useing it for lion anyway. In fact I don't use it for ANYTHING, and the only game I have taken with it is one called in Elk, and a couple deer, and have never taken it to Africa!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art