This is for anybody who has loaded and shot the North Fork Flat Point or Cup Point.<BR><BR>What do you think?<BR><BR>I have had nothing but perfect results accuracy wise, but I have always feared that the tiny width of the sparse driving bands would not provide adequate grip in the neck of the loaded cartridge to prevent nose battering in the magazine from setting the bullet free prematurely, even with a good crimp on a 100% densuty load. This would be a non-issue in the double rifle or single shot, of course.<BR><BR>My 10" twist McGowen .470 Capstick shoots the .474/500gr Cup Point and the .475/500gr Flat Point Solid equally well, and same velocity. One hole cloverleafs at 50 yards. I never thought 0.001" difference in the tiny bands would matter.<BR><BR>Today, I got Chief Thunderstick to try the .474/500gr Cup Point in his rifle. It was a big disappointment. Flat out sideways bullet hits and 6" group for 3 shots at 50 Yards. <img src="http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//bawling.gif" alt="bawling" width="21" height="16"><!--graemlin::bawling:--><BR><BR>His rifle is a Winchester Big Five from the "Custom Shop." You know, one of those 1 of 125 in the set of 5 safari calibers (125 rifles in each caliber). I do not know the twist. He is supposed to measure it now. It looks plenty fast twist just eyeballing the bore.<BR><BR>It must be that the land and groove diameters on the Winchester barrel are generous, loose.<BR><BR>I assume Winchester makes the barrels. I know by looking at the rifling that it is not a McGowen.<BR><BR>At what point are driving bands too tiny? <img src="http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif" alt="Wink" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin:;)-->I know the twist rate on the Winchester Capstick and will PM you the answer.I have heard that Mike is adding more bands to his bullets, no worries.6" groups at 50 yards are OK for Buffalo, let'er rip!I am Mike Brady and I have seen this thread: NO MORE .474", and more bands on .475".Each rifle is a law unto itself. Use the Barnes Smurf Bullets, just flat point them yourself if you are a machinist.

I voted myself and rated the thread.
So where's the 5 stars???

Voter number two has selected what Chief Thunderstick is doing. Being an accomplished machinist he shortens the Barnes XLC about 0.100" (and cups it out to a bigger hollowpoint opening) so it fits in the magazine of his Capstick when seated to crimp. He is now going to put a 0.400" flat meplat on the Barnes XLC Solid. He has seen the round nose solids tumble in the Iron Buffalo and wants no part of them anymore.

If anybody knows the Twist Rate of the .470 Capstick Big Five M70 Classic by Winchester, go ahead and shout it out.

Sumbuddy who Know?

RIP, I want an option in the poll that reads "Winchester forgot how to make good guns, and Chief Thunderstick is lucky that it even went bang."

I will shoot some of the NF .474 cups and let you know. So far I have been hoarding them like I do with all of my premium DG bullets (GS, Bridger and NF).

The NF .475" cups worked perfectly for me.

Right again 500grains,
Now I believe that Winchester barrels have rifling that is too shallow. I'll bet if you slugged some Winchester barrels, you find many that are too deep in the grooves AND too shallow in the lands.

RIP,

Those bullets have relief grooves, no driving bands.

I asked Mike B., and he agrees with my terminology quibble.

jim

I have only shoot .475 bullets and told MIke the .474 was a poor idea, cuz if it ain't broke don't fix it. I have never had a problem of any kind and believe them to be the best bullet made, bar none...base that on accuracy and shooting live animals.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterJim:
RIP,

Those bullets have relief grooves, no driving bands.

I asked Mike B., and he agrees with my terminology quibble.

jim

Jim,
You have not kept up with developments. Apparently you have only seen the North Fork softs, the best soft point bullets in the universe.
The soft points that Mike of North fork makes are grooved, true.
You obviously have not paid much attention to the solids. They are entirely different.

The North Fork softs have robust bearing surfaces that are grooved so it is about 50% bearing surface and 50% empty groove.

The solids have very thin and widely separated bands and usually only about seven hair-like circumferential bands on the entire surface of the shank. I exaggerate. Not quite that bad.

I would much rather that his solids were grooved like his softs however, or that he put more bands on the solids.

Ray,
Some of us have to learn the hard way. .475" it is. NO MORE 474!!!

Below is a re-run just to synchronize the discussion:

quote:

North Fork cup nosed solids (available from www.northforkbullets.com) From left to right:

1. North Fork 500 grain Cup Nosed Solid .474" - new

2. same, fired into buffalo - 56" penetration

3. same, fired into giraffe - 55" penetration

4. same, fired into giraffe (100 yards follow up shot) - 58" (penetration increased when expansion was less due to reduced velocity at range?)

velocity - 2300 fps from 470 capstick

I have had excellent results with the NF cup nose solids with driving bands, and I suspect Winchester put a crap barrel on the .470 in question.

Tony and I talked to Mike about these cup points at the Dallas show this year, for some time. He said the the NF solids need to be pushed faster than bullets of other makes sometimes because they don't build as much pressure as other bullets. The depth of the rings has nothing to do with the KEYHOLEING, IMO! The outside diameter my have some, because the rings may not be reaching the bottom of the barrel grooves. If you look at the bullets 500 posted you will see the rings don't show to have "LEAKED" and are intact, but I see no rub marks on the tops of the rings, between the land engraveings. The fact is the engraveing is easier to do on the NF bullets, hence less pressure. The .001 difference between the .474 and the .475 may do the trick as well. but I'd try upping the velocity some so to maybe salvage the .474s, and I think you will pleasently pleased!

I'm interested in the outcome, because I want to use these bullets in my 470 NE.

What Ray said!!

I betcha money that Mike goes back to using .475 because they have caused no problems and are super accurate...note that a Searcy .470 N.E.shoots .475 bullets best as .474 is undersize for his .470 barrels...I see absolutly no need for 474 bullets...

RIP, I shot some of Mike's 380grFP form my .404 & accuracy was as good as the softs, under 1moa. Sad though, they were not 100% reliable (#2 down hangs up about 50%) in my rifle so I am using the Barnes monosolid right now.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
RIP, I shot some of Mike's 380grFP form my .404 & accuracy was as good as the softs, under 1moa. Sad though, they were not 100% reliable (#2 down hangs up about 50%) in my rifle so I am using the Barnes monosolid right now.

Fred,
You do agree that nothing beats a North Fork soft, eh?
Chief Thunderstick will use the .474/500gr Barnes blue-coated brass solid in his Capstick. With its full bearing shank, it works well in the "loose" (shallow rifled) Winchester barrel. He will put a .400" diameter meplat on that round nose. You should use round nose solids no more forever too.

Ray,
All bets are off, thank you. It is a certainty that Mike Brady will make no more .474 caliber bullets forever.

quote:

Jim,
You have not kept up with developments. Apparently you have only seen the North Fork softs, the best soft point bullets in the universe.
The soft points that Mike of North fork makes are grooved, true.
You obviously have not paid much attention to the solids. They are entirely different.

The North Fork softs have robust bearing surfaces that are grooved so it is about 50% bearing surface and 50% empty groove.

The solids have very thin and widely separated bands and usually only about seven hair-like circumferential bands on the entire surface of the shank. I exaggerate. Not quite that bad.

I would much rather that his solids were grooved like his softs however, or that he put more bands on the solids.

RIP,

The North Fork solids I have are some Mike called "prototypes". They are .375"s.

I was niggling on whether or not the bullet is groove diameter with grooves cut into it, or the bullet is smaller than groove diameter with larger diameter bands.

jim

Fred,
The bullets are fine, its your gun that won't feed...tweek it my friend...

Everyone using a flat nose or cup point should test their gun for feed and function, many guns will not feed these bullets without being worked over by a competent gunsmith that knows his business...