A 375 and a 300 Winchester are similar. A 375 has more and it will become noticeable after firing quitea few shots at a paper target but it is the same general class. On the other hand the 300 has a lot more sharper blast and this adds to everything.

Just remember that a 375 was originally designed as a caliber to be used on everything and everyday at a time when a lot of shooting was done and if recoil had been too much it would have succeeded.

In the overall scheme of things a 375 is simply a medium powered caliber.

Mike

I agree with Mike entirely. To be honest with you, I would rather shoot the .375 as opposed to the .300. The .300 has a faster recoil drive and I am rather sensitive to blast.

I have an old M70 and a #1 in .375 H&H and they are both a pleasure to shoot. The M70 has recently received a synthetic stock and is now a real pussy cat from all positions.

Quite frankly, you may be a bit disappointed in the recoil the first time you pull the trigger! But I would wager you will fall in love with your new rifle.

Have fun and be well.

Regards,

------------------
~Holmes

I suspect its more related to stock design if thats the case.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

This is aprt of what I said:

"A 375 and a 300 Winchester are similar. A 375 has more and it will become noticeable after firing quitea few shots at a paper target but it is the same general class."

Mike

I'd rather use a 40 or 50 caliber rifle for elephant, so that the elephant doesn't cleanly and humanely kill me, in one of thoes rare circumstances that never happen twice......but the 375 is an exceptable minimun, along with the 9.3x62 and they do work most of the time.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

If you do get killed the P.H is obviously not doing his job.

If someone does a controlled scientific experiment showing the difference in kill time between a 375 and 416 I would be interested to see it.

Until then we have only 'gut feelings' and 'calibre biases' of todays relatively inexperienced modern hunters to rely on.

On the other hand Ray, did you say you had figures for 375 failures in some country or another?
Could you post them?

Karl.

Forgot to add. My brother wanted to mention that he was firing the 375 with factory loads in a CZ550 just a few weeks after a shoulder operation!

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 05-29-2001).]

I have a 8.5lb Sako in .375 H&H (9Lbs with Magazine full) & yes on the bench she kicks a fair bit but a .338 isn't much kinder. Biggest thing I shot before that was a 25-06. My Sako is on the light side so it kicks more but is manageable.

Everyone will tell you this, when shooting game you won't notice the recoil. Its true, But...But...But with every new rifle you need to sight in, develop handloads etc. so do everything you can to reduce recoil. Sand bags behind butt, recoil shield those bench gizmos they have in the States that use the bench to absorb the recoil. Anything that suits then your experience with it will be a pleasant one. (But no Muzzle Brakes please!)

Mike 375 is the man when it comes to shooting the .375 H&H off the bench. Also you don't have to use full bore loads all the time. Mike has been working on both full bore & reduced loads.

I agree with Mike, the .375 H&H is the absolute limit in cartridge size that you could and would use for anything, anyday.

I think you'll really enjoy your .375. Don't be surprised if at the range you become the centre of attention because everyone wants to find out what it is that is making the most noise.

Regards,
JohnT

Stats are stats, and as was brought to my attention more 375 are in use in Zim, and that could have a bareing on the figures, I dunno, just passing it on....

As to what I do know, I have seen the 375 fail on a small number of ocassions with soft point bullets on frontal and going away shots as have most hunters that have hunted with it extensively, such as George Hoffman, and that is probably in part why he developed the 416 Hoffman, I suggest....

My policy is if I have doubts, I get a bigger hammer...I have nothing against the 375 H&H, I had two of them until last week, when I sold one of them...I also shoot and have hunted with the 9.3x62 and 9.3x64 and put them into the same class as the 375...

Some of you need to understand that just because some of us are not comfortable with shooting Buffalo, Lions and elephants with the 375 H&H, doesn't indicate that we dislike the caliber or that we wouldn't use it, quite the contrary, I have used it extensively, it's just that some of us found a better deal, and thats our perogative...I certainly don't care what you shoot as long as its legal when you hunt with us...

A PH once told me he gets to shoot more Buffalo when clients use the 375 and smaller calibers, and I know that is a fact..so if one doesn't mind the PH hopping in and shooting your Buff, then your just fine with the 375.....All of the above is only my personal opinnion...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Bought it because I liked the idea of owning a classic, powerful caliber.

Laughed and hooted when the cases arrived from Midway. They looked just plain BIG sitting beside the '06, sized cases.

Loaded some up, went outside, gritted my teeth, aimed at the woodpile, BOOM!...Nothing! Hooted and hollered again. I wondered how many gun writers who exclaimed the punishing recoil had actually FIRED one of these things. I recently shot woodchuck number 3 from my upstairs window. I use it for everything. Shooting at game, the recoil is not noticable. From a bench, I suggest a PAST recoil shield as it can get a bit harsh at about round 10. It makes less noise than a 20" '06 carbine. Just a nice caliber IMHO.

OH, yes, the woodchuck. Couldn't see all of him behind the grass, guessed wrong on center of mass, shot a small rock on the ground about 3" to his right, still a fatal wound, removing large amounts of skin and a leg.

Wes

[This message has been edited by boltman (edited 05-30-2001).]

The 375 may be responsible for more failings then any other calibre but if as you say it 'may be because more 375 are in use in Zimbabwe', well then the 375 is also responsible for more clean kills than any other calibre.

Using such arguments is liable to give the tyro the wrong idea you must admit.

Like the thread on Brahman bulls versus Cape buff.You stated things like "Brahman's are all domestic"
"You have more fear of Diary cows"
"Disposition is an inherited trait in Bovines"

As I mentioned in that thread our Wild Brahman Scrub bulls are as wild ,cunning an adaptable as all the other nasty feral species we have in Australia.
Huge and very dangerous animals.

I am nitpicking a little but on a more serious side..

*You have made statements to an unexperinced hunter on that thread, that if he were to come to our country, may have got him killed.

You are in an positon of authority on this board.A lot of people do listen to what you say.

Stick to what you know and the facts, mate.

karl.

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The similarity between domesticated buffalo and wild buffalo is similarly enormous.

One animal is capable of rolling a car full of people driving down a road(as one did last year)

And one walks along dociley dragging ploughs for half of Asia.

Disposition may be inherited but it will be bred out again when the animal is forced to live in the wilds.
That is simple biology.

Strange since they are overfed milk drinking puppydogs they have been picked up as a 'trophy animal' by international outfitters.

Strange since our foremost big game hunter/writer Nick Harvey, who has taken Cape Buff and 150 Water buff rates them as a dangerous and unpredictable animal completely different from domesticated cattle.

I guess his opinion does not count alongside a man WHO HAS NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN ONE.

I guess the other Australians who have hunted them are 'blowing it all out of proportion just because 'Ray Atkinson'and his sidekick said so.

MAcD37, Ray should give you n e-mail later thanking you for backing him up. He mailed me to thank me on the old Hawk bullet thread
where Bill Tibbe was giving him a hard time and I jumped in to help him out.
Ray likes backup.

Ray if you can form an opinion on an animal you have never seen roam free you are a bigot.

I think my stockhand friends who hunt are aware of the enormous difference between the two animals.Would it take their opinion to sway your omniscience or would you write them off as 'blowing it out of proportion as well'.

Easy way to settle things mate.
Come over here and hunt one.
Of course if it easier to consider them beneath you 'because you fell over and broke your teeth on half a million acres of horsemanure'or whatever you said that is up to you.

Put your money where your mouth is pardner.

Karl.

Lock that in. Forget about Cape buff for a second.

I did however say they were dangerous.

The point I addressed with Ray was he is making an opinion on an animal he has never seen, based purely on his exposure to the animals in his own state.

If a guy who grew up on the world's biggest pig farm were to tell me, on his own expereince of domesticated pigs, that ALL pigs are easliy handled and harmless, I would laugh in his face.

True a feral pig may not be as dangerous as a truly wild speicies but that is not the same as saying a feral pig is not dangerous.
(You would be stupid to have such an attitude hunting them!)

Similarly if an asian farmer were to tell me all Water Buff can be lead by the nose and tapped with a stick(as I'm sure such a farmer would believe)I would still not recommend such an activity for a hunt!

Keep in mind the water buffalo was just as domesticated as a Brahman when it was originally brought to Australia.

So were the pigs.

Keep in mind the Brahmans have been in the wild almost as long now as the buffalo has.

If the Water buff is not in the Semi-dangerous game trophy class, well a lot of P.H's have been making suckers out of us for advertising it as such.

Once again I am not comparing them to the Cape Buff although I would like to have the chance one day.

Also not saying all Scrub bulls are this regressed and dangerous. Some are weak as water and very close to there domestic ties.

I was just addressing some generalisations which I considered to be uninformed.

Karl.

I don't have any experince with them mate.I've only seen pictures.
They are a fairly expensive proposition to hunt over here as they are relegated to a specific locality and as far as I know one of the few animals that has to be hunted on a guided hunt/trophy basis.
If we could Bakes to log on we might ask him as he comes from the Northern Territory.

Sed, sorry for hijacking your thread. I think you will have a lot of fun with a 375 if you get one.

Karl

Themost dangerous hunting you will do in Australia is chasing roos across paddocks in a 4 wheel drive.

It is the unseen stump in the ground.

As you get older and wiser (or more scared?) you tend to restrict such activities to chasing them across stripped wheat paddocks.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl:
Mac,
#1
Remember I never said Scrub bulls were more dangerous than Cape buff. In fact I said the opposite. Lock that in. Forget about Cape buff for a second. I did however say they were dangerous.

#2
The point I addressed with Ray was he is making an opinion on an animal he has never seen, based purely on his exposure to the animals in his own state.

#3
If a guy who grew up on the world's biggest pig farm were to tell me, on his own expereince of domesticated pigs, that ALL pigs are easliy handled and harmless, I would laugh in his face.

Keep in mind the water buffalo was just as domesticated as a Brahman when it was originally brought to Australia.

Also not saying all Scrub bulls are this regressed and dangerous. Some are weak as water and very close to there domestic ties.
#4
I was just addressing some generalisations which I considered to be uninformed.

Karl.

---

#1
The Cape comparison is what I read, and if I go back and read it again I might see it differently, so with that thought in mind I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I also agree that feral cattle are dangerous, it is just that they have certain inhereted traits that make them sitting targets for those who understand them. ie: chargeing with their eyes closed, that is inherent to Brahma cattle no matter how long they have been wild.

#2
Karl, the wild cattle Ray referes to are WILD, and have been so sense the Conquistadores let them escape in the early 17th century, and are the old forefathers of the Spanish fighting bull. They kill cowboys every year on the remote ranches along the Mexican border. You have to understand the country that Ray is talking about, and that it is almost as uninhabited as North Australia,on the Texas side, and less populated on the Mexican side. There is one big difference in these ferals, than the Brahma version. They do not charge with their eyes closed.

#3
I don't know why anybody thinks that because a man is 66/67 years old suddenly anything he says is attributed to senility, or seen as generalasitions. I don't know how old you are Karl, and it really doesn't matter any more for your credibility, than it does with Ray's. I did not read that Ray was of the opinion that your Brahma feral were domestic, but ferals, and he was compareing them to the WILD cattel along the Mex border.In this case I think in your thinking you were makeing some generalizations, by assumeing because Ray had these animals in a pen, that they were somehow tame, I can assure you this is not the case.

In closeing, let me say, that it wasn't asked, but I got the idea that you think anyone on Rays side in this is as inexperienced as you THINK Ray is. I can only speak for myself on this but I have hunted your scrub bulls, water buffalo,Benteng, and hogs,and I don't find the scrubs any tougher to kill than a milk cow, and are far easier to avoid when they get mean.

Karl, the constant going on about Ray's jokes (in your mind back peddeling) is not founded in FACT. You too need to understand something about which you know nothing about. Texas humor, though not funny to all, is just that TEXAS HUMOR, and being from texas, I understood what Ray was saying and did not read it as you did! We had a man running for governer of Texas a few years ago, that made a statement, that has been in Tex cowboy humor for as long as I can remember, and when the people who did not understand it, got through posting it in the papers, and on TV it turned into something that was not intended by the man who said it,they took it to mean he was insulting women. When this man was asked about what he would do about something that no one had a solution for, his answer was,"When rape is inevetable, you have to just relax and enjoy it". To a Texas cowboy this simpley meant, if there is nothing you can do about a thing, you simply have to accept it, and do the best you can under the cercumstances.

I really do not wish to carry this any farther, other than to say, RAY did not need to have anyone back him, and the replies you got on his behalf were genuine, and
un-solicited, and I think your harping on them is in poor taste, and only serves to lower your place in the scheme of things!

Some times I post things that I wish I had not, but this string is the exception!

>>>>>>>>>> Good hunting of what ever you find to your likeing, for that is what I will do!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>

The breeds of bull I had to correct myself on (if you read my post on the other Brahman thread-the longest one.)
That thread is the best I can say truthfully about the hunting of bulls and about the best I can put my experiences into a short post, without exaggeration.

In fact I've always held the Scrub bull is just a larger version say of a wild pig and deserves the same respect, but no not fear.No one dies hunting these and the same holds true for any game these days I guess.

Thanks for your persepctive on both beasts, I was curious and am still seeking input so I must quiz you for some details for my own mental database if you don't mind.

1.If you took the Scrubber in the N.T the chances are it could have been a milk cow, well not quite but just a fence jumper or whose parents made it out a few years ago.
The Cape York scrub bulls are in an entriely different state, habitat etc.

1.Was your bull in the N.T, thrown in on a buff hunt?
2.How many did you shoot ?
3.How many of those similar wild conquistadorial Texan bulls have you shot at proper range, not destroyed or roped,but shot?

This is for my comparisons,not to cause trouble.

4.And how many Cape buffs have you shot?

Lastly,
Don't worry too much the humour and carrying on too much, and how we don't understand Texan humour etc.
You guys have experinced a little Aussie humour at it's craftiest along the way too.

I think everyone had a good laugh in the end.Even Saeed had a chuckle and he runs the place.
( If anyone wants anymore laughs we are still giving lessons over at HA where the 'old ladies' as Mike calls them are snorting with disgust.)

A few of your boys want to come over for a shoot and that is all to the good as well.

Have fun and shoot safe mate

Karl.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 06-01-2001).]

Karl.

Hope you have fun with the 375

I think the recoil difference with the 375 as opposed to the 300WM or even a 338, is that the recoil "impulse"(for lack of a better term)is slower and longer in the 375 than the small magnums. I was suprised by my 375 as well, it is more of a push than my 338 WM. Granted, it pushes further back, but at a slower rate. The same seems true between my 338 and any of the 300's or 7mm's I've fired.

The 375 is truly a grand cartridge, and I only hope some day I can hunt africa with it. I would bring it, and a 416 Rigby, and hunt anything with confidence. Alas, sofar I have only hunted elk here in AZ. with my 375 so far. It's pure elk poison though!

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl:
Mac,
Thanks for a concise and civil post

>>KARL>>Thanks for your persepctive on both beasts, I was curious and am still seeking input so I must quiz you for some details for my own mental database if you don't mind.

>>KARL>>1.If you took the Scrubber in the N.T the chances are it could have been a milk cow, well not quite but just a fence jumper or whose parents made it out a few years ago.
The Cape York scrub bulls are in an entriely different state, habitat etc.

>>MAC>> It was in the northern Terratory! I have never been to York!

>>KARL>>1.Was your bull in the N.T, thrown in on a buff hunt?

>>MAC>> YES!

>>KARL>>2.How many did you shoot ?
>>MAC>> 6, But there were 15 taken durring a 7 day hunt. The outfitter/guide was takeing them for the meat, and hides for market. His boys were hunting them while we hunted Buffalo, and we got in on it, after I had my bull Buffalo. These wild cattel seemed to be mostly of Brahma Mix, or pure Brahma. All the ones shot by the Guide were shot with a 303 Britt.The ones I shot were shot with a S/S 450 NE 3 1/4" double rifle, and 480 gr soft points. They dropped to the 303 exactly the same as with the 450 NE. The Water buffalo, now that was another matter. a couple of them took an extra shot or two with even the 450!
Pigs got slapped down like a smart mouthed Britt, in an Aussie beer bar.
>>KARL>> 3.How many of those similar wild conquistadorial Texan bulls have you shot at proper range, not destroyed or roped,but shot?
>>MAC>> Over a period of fifty years I really couldn't tell you, but the number would be high. We had a habit of shooting any BULL we saw. The cows were left alone for the most part, but sometimes rouded up and sold as Mexican scrubbs to feeding pens, especially durring the WWII rationing.
We shot a lot of them with .22 rifles, in the head.
>>KARL>>This is for my comparisons,not to cause trouble.
>>MAC>> Yeah, RIGHT! and I bath in the bilabong with Salt water Crocs!

>>KARL>> 4.And how many Cape buffs have you shot?
>>MAC>> Under sport hunting conditions I have mostly taken two per trip, and on one occasion three! The thing is, I have been on several Cull hunts, as well as a couple forage hunts where all manner of game was taken, to thin herds on the Culls, and to feed starveing people on the forages. The cull hunts serve two purposes, one is to thin the herds, and two, for meat/hides for biltong, and leather market. I either case some 30 or 40 head of game were taken on the forage hunts, with 1/3 of that Buffalo. On the culls mostly cows, and deformed bulls were taken. These hunts bare little resemblance to sport hunting, but one gets to know what it takes to put one down, and a large number of anything is not needed to become very careful how you go about shooting them.

>>KARL>>( If anyone wants anymore laughs we are still giving lessons over at HA where the 'old ladies' as Mike calls them are snorting with disgust.)
>>MAC>> I can see you guys do not know Mr Atkinson! About three minutes after you met him, face to face, your "OLD LADIES" opinion would change drastically, I assure you! He was for a long time a DEA (Drug Enforsement Agency) agent in one of the worse smuggeling areas in the world, the Big Bend country of South West Texas, and usually opperated alone, so don't sell him short, many smuggelers did, to their dismay!

>>KARL>> A few of your boys want to come over for a shoot and that is all to the good as well.
>>MAC>> I'm booking for 2003, but it will be up North, for Buffalo, and Hogs! Would really like to hunt your area, you make it sound scarey!

Have fun and shoot safe mate

Karl.
[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 06-01-2001).]

---

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>

Scarey. Nothing scarey about Guided hunts. Anyone can take anything these days with the correct 'set up'.

I guess my vehemence on scariness comes from the fact most hunting here is non guided. Just one guy or a friend in remote locations responsible for their own safety.

No P.H for back up, to provide food , water, navigation, med-evacs.

We have a lot of toursits getting killed doing stupid stuff like petting wild dogs, trying to cross deserts, bike riding, hiking etc. Keep in mind we have less people than Texas in our entire country.Anytime some idiot gets hurt we get the blame and laws that restrict us as well.

So you can see my knee jerk reaction when people start talking about big game found here as well, and why my comments are of a precautionary nature.

You never know what novice may be reading, ready to 'rope himself a scrub bull', because he heard cowboys talking about it.

So my post was not entirely relevant. Sorry. however as you said about yourself, I would not retract what I have said.

Karl.

The "liitle old ladies" that Karl refers to is not Atkinson but some of the posters.

Kind of like talk back radio. On they come expressing disgust and how they won't listen to such shows. Then they go on with all the details of what they heard while they were not listening.

The best ones are those that post telling people not to post any more

Mike

Best regards Arild