Ebony Fore End?

23 October 2003, 04:09

Bill M

GAH,

Besides aesthetics, I think they do have a purpose. Ebony is more dense and stronger than walnut, and resists "denting" better. As the tip of the fore end can get more bumps and dings that the rest of the stock, the Ebony provides extra protection to a "vulnerable" part of the stock.

Course I could be all wet....

Regards, Bill

23 October 2003, 05:43

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Is there a functional purpose to the ebony fore end on many safari rifles, or is it just for aesthetics?

It helps the stockmaker finance his next hunt.

[Wink]

23 October 2003, 06:27

Atkinson

Just something else to break and cause problems, it is purely decorative and its not any harder than good walnut...It is inclined to split when it get dry....It is nice looking if that blows your skirt up...I have some with and some without.

23 October 2003, 09:55

Robgunbuilder

All TRUE DGR's must have an EBONY forend TIP. IT'S THE LAW!-Rob

23 October 2003, 10:32

PAHunter

GAHunter:

Really it's for nice. There seems to be a shortage of ebony right now for some reason, but I found it at a dealer out here if anybody needs some for a forend.

Regards... Jim P. [Wink]

24 October 2003, 01:14

Marrakai

Ebony is a distant second to buffalo horn for 'blowing my skirt up'!! [Big Grin]

24 October 2003, 02:04

Bakes

When my .416 finially gets completed [Roll Eyes]

it will have and ebony fore end and a buff horn grip cap. My 22-250AI has an ebony fore end....I think it looks good!

Bakes

27 October 2003, 16:29

Atkinson

Horn will shrink and crack within a few years and look like the dickens...it is pretty but requires continued refinishing and leveling out. Some Ebony will do the same if it is not properly cured and most is not unless it has laid around in some gunsmiths shop for a number of years...My Ebony is probaly 20 years old at least...I have had it for that long..

28 October 2003, 01:16

Marrakai

Fair go, Ray! The horn fore-end caps on several of my favourite rifles are around 100 years old! When should I expect to see them start shrinking and cracking?

28 October 2003, 02:24

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by Marrakai:
Fair go, Ray! The horn fore-end caps on several of my favourite rifles are around 100 years old! When should I expect to see them start shrinking and cracking?

Yeah Ray, when? I've got several 125+ yr old shotguns without splits and cracks in their horn. Maybe I should start looking into replacement pieces soon...

And if your walnut is as hard as your ebony, I suspect you need to find some new ebony.

Personally, I prefer desert ironwood, and it is a hell of a lot harder than walnut also.

Brent

28 October 2003, 05:25

Atkinson

Yesteryears Ebony was probably dryed and properly cured in most cases and not so in other, much the same as today...

Todays Ebony is normally green when you buy it and needs to sit in the shop for several years, same with most woods..thats my opinnion...you are not required to agree.

I have seen a ton of old guns that the horn had shrunk, split and cracked, even broke off..run your finger over the connection. I have seen many split ebony and horn FE tips..You can see them at most gunshows as a matter of fact. Contrary to your view that is quite common.
If you have not owned any then I would say that you are fortunate, own quality guns, and good for you.

Wood and especially horn tends to move with changes in climate and moisture even when sealed for several years after completion in some cases...and most mass produced guns and a number of Custom rifles do not have properly cured wood, nor are they fully dried or layed out correctly.

I remind you that the walnut stock itself can shrink as well as the forend wood and cause a poor joint also..but since you don't have this problem its probably not of concern to you.

But for most of us this is a consideration on a using rifle and probably a wise one to omit the Ebony, however it is optional and I am giving such advise to GA as he asked for opinnion, it will be up to him whos advise he follows....

I have guns with Ebony tips and horn tips also, buy from a practical point of view they are non functional and worthless as tits on a boar hog IMO....Anything on a rifle thats not functional does not really need to go into the field IMO...

28 October 2003, 05:55

GMaxson

All you have to do with horn is send it out to have it "stabilized", I think that consists of impregnating it with an acrylic. With every fly rod I make I use a piece of stabilized wood for the end cap and it takes abuse like you would not believe. They also will stabilize bone or horn to use as knife handles etc... I'll post the information tomorrow if anyone is interested. Once wood, bone, horn is stabilized it'll out live you and your next 5 generations and still look like new.

http://www.stabilizedwood.com/

[ 10-27-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: GMaxson ]

28 October 2003, 06:02

tiggertate

Just curious, Ray... how much can a boar hog with tits weigh?

28 October 2003, 06:22

500grains

The purpose of an ebony forearm tip is to cause the gunstock to blend in with the rifle muzzle when viewed from muzzle end, so that when a cape buffalo charges he thinks he is facing a 4" diameter gun barrel rather than just a 375 H&H. That impression can intimidate the buffalo and cause him to veer off course during the charge.

Rifles without an ebony forearm tip should be chambered for a cartridge in the 'stopper' category so that the visual effect of the ebony tip is not needed.

28 October 2003, 06:32

fla3006

28 October 2003, 06:40

tiggertate

500grains: Did you play "Oddball" in Kelly's Heros? I wondered where that pipe-over-the-barrel scene came from! [Big Grin]

28 October 2003, 11:50

Atkinson

Tigertale,
.00003 grams

29 October 2003, 05:11

bobc

I recently had a 100 year old Army Navy boxlock shotgun 'freshened' up and had a new piece of ebony added to the fore-end. I bought it with the ebony missing, and most of the unrestored shotguns I've seen from that era have the tip piece missing. That may be as much about the glues used then as the ebony. The shotgun sure looks better with that hole filled. Bob

29 October 2003, 05:16

tiggertate

Ray: Very good answer

30 October 2003, 07:25

Mikelravy

I would repectfully suggest that climate has a considerable effect on any wood or horn items. Where I live it is a job keeping walnut from mildewing. Those people living and hunting in Alaska should probably consider a different stock material than those living in Arizona.

30 October 2003, 09:01

Scrollcutter

Everybody has their own opinion in regards to the esthetics of a forend tip or not. Myself, I like the contrast. I have until recently used ebony exclusively. Now it is buffalo horn, PERIOD.

Ray,
I may not know much, but I do know that horn is one of the most naturaly stable materials known to man. Have you noticed how many custom knife makers use horn and/or bone for their handle material.

I'm not knocking ebony. Seasoned ebony is dimensionaly pretty stable to boot.

30 October 2003, 09:12

tiggertate

Scrollcutter: Can you provide material or refer us to a source of suitable horn?

30 October 2003, 09:15

Scrollcutter

Tigertate:

How much horn do you need?

[ 10-30-2003, 00:16: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ]

30 October 2003, 09:23

tiggertate

Enough for two tips and maybe a buttplate.

30 October 2003, 09:46

uwave

One problem I have heard mentioned with using buffalo horn for grip and forend caps is that
bugs and worms will eventually find them and eat them since the horn itself is organic in composition.

30 October 2003, 12:39

Scrollcutter

So is the wood.

30 October 2003, 13:03

Scrollcutter

Tigertate:

I sent you an email regarding the horn.....Roger

30 October 2003, 13:09

tiggertate

Thanks. That's my work and I'll check it in the AM.

30 October 2003, 13:31

Scrollcutter

Tigertate:

You have a PM.

31 October 2003, 07:18

GMaxson

Most knife handles that are bone have been sent out to be stabilized. Again, if you send a horn grip cap out to be stabilized it will come back pert near indestructable, will not expand, contract, rot, mildew, crack, etc... and will not need to be finished, just polished. If anyone wants a sample, I can mail them a small piece of wood that has been stabilized and polished to check out. It's amazing what it does to bone, horn, wodd etc...

31 October 2003, 07:29

tiggertate

I'll bite. Now that I'm leaning hard toward horn, GMaxson: who performs the service? Also, how well does the finished piece bond with materials that are also suitable for wood?

[ 10-30-2003, 22:54: Message edited by: tigertate ]

01 November 2003, 05:06

GMaxson

I posted the address above. I use the wood for butt caps for fly rods I make an it is great. I'll take a digital picture of one and post it. All I can say is the rod I'll take a picture of has seen far more abuse then any rifle ever will. 200+ Steelhead trips in mostly sub-zero weather to freezing rain, has been thrown around the boat, left in a hot truck for weeks on end etc... and still looks like the day I glued it on.

For my use, I just epoxy it on.

01 November 2003, 05:32

tiggertate

Thanks

02 November 2003, 05:00

Atkinson

You know guys, it may tick you off but I just don't want horn forend tips on my rifles that could possibly swell or whatever, break at the seam on one of my hunting rifles if I have a choice....I use my guns for hunting and I have no need for any non-functional add on. Some of my guns do have ebony FE tips but I keep an eye on them and its too late to change them.

Comparing knife handles and flyrod handles to rifle forend tips doesn't cut much with me and besides they use Ivory, micarta, sheephorn, elkhorn and everything in the world for knives and there are hundreds of split and broken horn knife handles at every knife and gun show you go to...I have seen many broken, split and undersize FE tips on rifles and so have you if you are knowledgeable...So all those lame attempst at convincing me that horn and ebony is as stable as the end of the stock is not agreeable in my opinion and doesn't change my thinking at all....

Now if one likes them and they are eye apealing, then use them and enjoy, but don't try and tell me they have any other function except looks and thats only in the eyes of the beholder.....

The above is my opinnion only as it is yours, so I respectfully disagree with you, but would defend with my life your right to believe what ever you wish. [Smile]

02 November 2003, 08:00

tiggertate

I agree in pincipal, Ray. My most serious hunting rifle is top-end synthetic for that very reason. Ugly but utterly dependable. This time I'm building one just to be pretty and relatively true to the period.

02 November 2003, 12:23

Atkinson

Tigertate,
The most important thing about this thread is it has made for some tantalizing conversation towit the result is meaningless, but interresting never the less....The views of all of you are appreciated and all have merit..

02 November 2003, 13:40

tiggertate

Quite so. I am trying to contibute to the extent that I can. I only address individuals in the same vein that one looks someone in the eye when conversing. It is different, I must say, when body language and other visuals are missing. I didn't realise how dependent we (I) are (am) on signals other than language and I may have bowed up when I shouldn't have. Apologies if I offended.

02 November 2003, 15:05

tiggertate

Scrollcutter: Just figured out what a PM is. Thought you were telling me good night. Welcome to the information age, Tigertate.

03 November 2003, 05:29

Frank Martinez

Tigger,
Oh yes, non-verbal communication is vital and can represent as much as 70% of individual understanding during conversation. It is of course why some would communicate on the net or phone rather than in person.
For a really great read on the effects of Kinesic Anology please read:
Non-verbal Communication in Human Interaction by Knapp.
It will explain completely why I have my tongue in my cheek as I sit here typing away or why you may have only one-finger sticking out of your fist as you read this. All in good humor.
I do however appreciate your help in finding a way to plug my fly-rods with a stable material.I too fish for steelhead- The really big ones from the Smith, EEL, Mad and Van Duzen rivers of the Pacific Northcoast- and need something to protect the fighting butts from wearing down.
Frank