quote:

I want velocity and sectional density middle of the road: SD over 0.3, and velocity over 2500 fps ... Crap! I can't go too fast ... no more than 2800 fps ...

RIP,

Dr Don Heath has done an article some time back in AFRICAN HUNTER about penetration of solids in his custom test medium that includes the shoulder bones of elephant if I am not mistaken. I respectfully ask him to come in here and share his experience with us. He demonstrated that the velocity should idealy be kept under 2,500 fps for best results. I think he used a 375 H&H in his test.

Most 375 H&H users that I know of load 300 grain solids around 2,400 fps to keep pressures at bay. Also the 300 grain in not overly long and is quite adequate for dinosuars.

Take care
Chris

quote:

Jon A,

Well we, the proponets of higher SD bullets, are beginning to grow by the day - we just got Norbert also on our side.

Anyone else that feel the same way are welcome to express their solidaritiy - may be we can get up to 10 around the globe to become members of the SD-club.

Take care
Chris bekker

Hi Jon A,

Just to keep you posted, we just got another member for the SD Club. None other than Ray Atkinson, who recommended the use of 320 grainers in a 9,3 x 62 to another hunter. This is great Ray. Please accept my words of welcome.

The list so far is:

1. Myself
2. Alf
3. Jon A
4. RIP
5. Ray Atkinson

Come on guys ... who is going to be No.6
Once we attain the figure of 10, we will throw a party.

Anybody thinking that a SD higher than .300 has some value is welcome to join the club.

My contention is actually that one conviced soul is already a majority.

Best regards
Chris

I also like bullets with a S.D. of .300 or greater for my hunting purposes!

I didn't go back and read all the posts, so I hope I'm not stepping in some ......

I like the .338 300gr bullets out of my 338 lapua. .375 SD

These bullets of monometallic construction and with Sd in excess of .300 work very well and are recommended in the respective calibres:

338 Win Mag - 250gr FN
378 Weatherby - 300gr FN
378 Weatherby - 300gr HV
408 CT - 370gr HV
408 CT - 385gr Spitser
416 Rigby - 380gr FN
416 Weatherby - 410gr FN
458 Win Mag - 450gr FN
460 Weatherby - 450gr FN
460 Weatherby - 500gr FN
470 NE - 500gr FN
505 Gibbs - 570gr FN
50BMG - 720gr Spitser
577 T Rex - 800gr FN

Of course it has nothing to do with Sd that exceeds the mythical .300.

Twist rate, bullet length and bullet construction are the reasons why these combinations work so well. There are also scores of bullet/caliber combinations with Sd less than .300 that work equally well.

Generally, the application of these mythical high Sd bullets is very limited while lower Sd bullets are practical over a wider range of applications, especially in the medium caliber ranges where the vast majority of shooting is done.

List of elite hunters belonging to the SD club so far:

1. Myself
2. Alf
3. Jon A
4. RIP
5. Ray Atkinson
6. MHC_TX
7. Kman
8.
9.
10.

Gerard you are banned from this club due to the fact that we do not have enough cheese to offer you with that whine of yours.

Even that small difference between the 270 gr FN and 300 gr FN tell the story. That's how it is (Dit is hoe dit is !!!)

One convinced man is already a majority.

Chris

Chris,
Only you could misconstrue my post as an "application" to the Sd club. Where have you been the last 10 months?


Funniest of all is this:

quote:

List of elite hunters belonging to the SD club so far:

1. Myself

From the Oxford Concise: Elite: The Best, the Best People.

Alf, RIP and Ray I know well enough to know they qualify. Unfortunately I do not know the other gentlemen well enough to venture an opinion. But you.....I am sorry but paper tigers most certainly would not qualify as "Elite".

PS. You forgot to put Norbert's name on the list. (Attention to detail lacking again?)

Gerard,

That is why I don't want you in the club, because you are incapbale of being at peace with everybody around you. Argue for ever and a day ...

Chris

1. Myself
2. Alf
3. Jon A
4. RIP
5. Ray Atkinson
6. MHC_TX
7. Kman
8. Norbert
9. Mauritz Coetzee
10.Pieter Olivier
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

Ans so we go !!!!

Chris

Chris,
As long as you make statements such as this:

quote:

You are making a fool of yourself when you say SD has no significance and that it could only have been created by someone with a macabere sense of humour (like you state on your website)

and then refuse to back it up with fact when asked:

quote:

If you are able to set aside your prejudices about my opinion of Sd, take another look at this article. Tell me where you differ from a technical point of view. Are the comparisons drawn and the examples made, technically correct? Are there any facts that can be proven false?

you can hardly accuse me of being argumentative.

Your quoting of Alf as stating that the temporary cavity is of no significance is another example of this. When your statement is disproved, you just drag up another red herring to draw attention away from your blunder.

Lets us see you state some facts instead of just sprouting rhetoric, swearwords and personal attacks such as this.

quote:

because you are incapbale of being at peace with everybody around you.

With the exception of youself and those you dragged into your mudslinging whenever you start losing, I have a client list of some 4000 gunsmithing customers and more than that on the GSC side, that we are very much at peace with. Your crystal ball needs unclouding again.

quote:

That is why I don't want you in the club

So you missed: "Only you could misconstrue my post as an "application" to the Sd club. Where have you been the last 10 months?"

Very interesting discussion and differing points of view.
I haven't done a great deal of big game hunting and without starting another bloodbath what would I be better off using.
Scenario 30mtr from Asiatic water buffalo who is side on to me I have a .458 Lott 24" barrel with the following rounds:
500gn Rn Hornady fmj, 500gn lead tip Hornady both of which are doing 2300fps.
350gn lead tip Hornady, 350gn Rn Hornady fmj both of which are doing say 2800fps.
I have read a lot of different points of view over the years with one side using the hydrostatic shock theory, the penetration with the projectile deforming and creating a large wound channel and finally the solid with deep to complete penetration.

nt,
In the scenario you describe and with the bullet choices given, use the 500gr bullets. Hydrostatic shock is a misnomer and is now recognised as bad terminology. On a broadside shot, both 500gr bullets you mention will do. The problem one is faced with is, how do we know the shot will not be a frontal or going away shot when the time comes. This is where solids are preferred over softs.

Even that small difference between the 270 gr FN and 300 gr FN tell the story.



Chris

Get a grip Chris, your top jaw has unhinged again.

quote:

Your quoting of Alf as stating that the temporary cavity is of no significance is another example of this.

Gerard

Debate this with Alf. Tell him how important it is. Also convice him that it is actually more important than the permanent cavity. The SPLASH effect of the high energy. Get more splash ... use softs at extreme velocities and enjoy it. Sit under the tree and scratch your head ... bufoonababoona.

Chris

Ah, yes, the infamous splash effect. Forgive me please, but it sure is a pretty thing.

Chris,
Your insightful technical reply is interesting.

quote:

Debate this with Alf.

No need to debate this with Alf, he knows what it is about. you are the one who made the blunder and who remains ignorant on the subject.

quote:

Also convince him that it is actually more important than the permanent cavity.

TRIPLE HORNSWOGGLE!! No one ever claimed that it is more important than the permanent cavity. Your claim that the temporary cavity is of no significance is absolute trash and it has been proven to you. In typical Bekker fashion you spiral into personal insult when proven wrong.

quote:

The SPLASH effect of the high energy. Get more splash ... use softs at extreme velocities and enjoy it.

Even after this has been explained to you several times by different people, you still do not understand it. The temporary cavity contributes to the permanent cavity and is a function of drag (deformed bullet shape) and speed. Typically you trot out the personal insults when you fail technically.

RIP,
You have to pardon Bekker for his remarks, they are made in ignorance. Imagine the discussion that will take place if you confront someone in darkest Africa with a bicycle, if he has never seen one before. What is obvious and elementary to some, is simply beyond the sphere of experience of others. Sadly they do not know that they do not know.

Gerard,

Go ahead and maximize your splash effect.

Big game hunters with big bore guns do not need splash effect. In fact they got by pretty well for more than a a century without it.

Do I need splash-effect ... have I ever missed it? Or do I need it like a fish needs a bycicle?

Splash only impresses one when you shoot water bottles and is largely absent in game hunting, but if you want to punt this theory you should attempt to to start a movement to design new calibers with bigger cases or redesign all existing calibers with double case capacity.

Chris

Ray,

I came across this piece that you wrote some time back on the question of SD, and I must say that I can put a toast to that buddy.

And I quote ... "Sectional Density is probably the most important factor in choosing a Woodleigh, Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Hornady etc. for shooting big dangerous game ....

And I would still take a 300 Gr. GS over a lighter GS bullet, same for Barnes X's, for Buffalo and I have used them and Barnes enough or observed their use enough to believe this. And I would still take a 300 Gr. GS over a lighter GS bullet, same for Barnes X's, for Buffalo and I have used them and Barnes enough or observed their use enough to believe this ...

The advise of using a lighter Monolithic bullet these days is IMO a big mistake, and mostly sales hype by producers of such ...

I do believe Monolithics penitrate better than conventional bullets for the mostpart, but making them lighter for more velocity is not the way to go on Buffalo, elephant...I use and love the GS Custom bullets, both HP and FN solids, but I still like that weight pushing behind my bullet and my test show the 300 gr. out penitrates the 250 in the same bullet, both Barnes and GS... My test show the 300 gr. Failsafe, pentitrates better than their 270 gr.

I place a lot on Sectional Density because it works if you know how to read it, from a practical field application ..."

I am making you a life-long member of the SD club and I am sure it will be to Gerard's disgust ... same!



Chris

COLOR:RED]"So, as usual, your research is selective, reflecting only that which is in line with your limited vision and your specific objective of targeting GSC as a manufacturer with you slanderous remarks."[/COLOR]

Gerard,

I came acoss the piece that Ray wrote. I did not research all he ever wrote over the years and I am thus not selective, as you try to make out. If Ray changed his mind about SD, then he would not be eligible for membership to the eletist SD club, just like yourself who tries everything under the sun to convince people that SD is totally irrelevant. Of course we know it is not, and RIP says so as well .... according to him it is a figure of highest merit (FOHM)... it must have slipped your mind?

I reject your notion that I am targeting GSC as a manufacturer. You as a person is your own biggest enemy. Talking about slander, I think you must carefully examine your own position before you point a finger.

We are debating concepts and the interpretation of our experiences as well as hypothesises of certain ballistic events. And this has nothing to do with your company or anybody else for that matter. So please do not contort the facts, as you tried with the BC and SF issues - lying and cheating until you were caught out.

Bafoonababoona

Chris