Hornady's 450/400 ammo in old British doubles

06 July 2021, 02:59

any problems with shooting the hornady ammo in old British doubles or any risk of any damage to the rifle? near as I can determine the groove/bullet diameter used to be .408 but it appears Hornady's bullets are .410 although I'm not certain about that from what I've found.

Roger

06 July 2021, 06:54

DCS Member

I’d suggest asking in the DR sub forum. These guys will tell you to trash it and buy a .458!

06 July 2021, 09:29

cal pappas

What rifle are you writing of?
What case length?
What year was the rifle made?
With more informaion I can perhaps answer your questions.
Cal

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06 July 2021, 17:24

willmckee

Rodda, 1910, 3”. as far as I know, Hornady only makes the 3”, not the 3-1/4”.
Roger

06 July 2021, 17:27

willmckee

Marcus,
Yeah, I’ve been through that horse poop before. Once on a shotgun forum I asked something about a Belgian Auto-5 3” mag and was told to use it as a boat anchor and get a benelli super chicken hawk or whatever.

Roger

06 July 2021, 17:42

LHeym500

Your first area of concern is going to be the diameter. 450/400 especially are reported as being rifles all over the map from .408 to .412.

The Hornady 450/400 bullet is .410.

The next area of concern is how you feel about Over Stressed Rifling. Some, on the forum believe the Copper Clad/Steel bullet is actually harder on barrels than a full copper bullet with relief or bore rider bands. This I never resolved for myself having a modern double.

From a velo stand Point the Hornady round from 24 inch barrels has been reported as being a 2000-2050 FPS round. Velo does not correlate with pressure, as a powder may give higher pressure for a velo range, but I doubt you have a pure pressure problem with this ammo. Hornady appears is on the conservative side. Never know when someone was asleep at the wheel. It is more likely you will get an under charge with Hornady. I have had that happen.

06 July 2021, 20:02

cal pappas

When the 3" came along there was more standards in the gun trade. I have found 3" cases work with .410 or .411 bullets. I believe the variations were with the 3 1/4" case partly due to the black to nitro tradition.
Do a chamber cast first but if your rifle is a 3" the modern .410" bullets should be fine.
Hornady did make 3 1/4" brass for the .450-400. I have 17 boxes of it.

06 July 2021, 22:05

LHeym500

I agree with the Master that by 1906 things were more or less standardized, but I have seen reports of variation with 450/400 3 inch Jeffery rifles from 408-412. The method to the answer is to cast.

Craig Boddington wrote when he was consulting on the Hornady load the .410 diameter was chosen bc of these variances.

Of course, everything said here contemplates and assumes a Niro Proof rifle. Proof marks are really not that hard to decipher, if you are unsure please post pictures. Post pictures just because we want to see her.

07 July 2021, 07:49

lee440

My Rodda is pre 1925 400J 3" Boxlock regulated for 60 grains Cordite and has .411 bores, actually, the right barrel is .412 which is not uncommon in a 100 year old used rifle. The right barrel has definetly been shot more. The first thing you need is a chamber cast and slug the barrels to find out what you have. There are plenty of instances of 408 bore 3" guns, sometimes if the builder had them on hand, that was what got used. I have shot over 500 rounds of .411 Woodleigh soft and solids downrange and shot 3 Buff with them. No problems with them and they also use a mild steel jacket/copper plated like the Hornady's. If your bore slugs out .411, you will have no problems with the Hornady ammo, I have shot about 2 boxes out of mine and they shoot fine, being .410 is probably a bonus for less bore wear.
How about posting some pictures? Roddas are not too common! By the way, I am sure you are aware that Woodleigh makes .408 bullets.
Lee.

07 July 2021, 07:49

willmckee

Thanks, I already know it's nitro. I'm not aware there ever was 450/400 BP load anyway. That was not my concern - just bullet diameter and pressure. So far, I take it nobody has ever actually fired any Hornady loads in an older British double. doesn't sound like it.

Roger

07 July 2021, 07:53

willmckee

Other than Lee440. Did not see your post in time. Thanks, I'll slug the bores.

One thing I recall from one of Graeme Wright's books which I no longer have is that there had been problems with today's thicker jacketed, tougher bullets and the comparatively thin-walled barrels on older guns. This rifle is 10.5# and the breech is massive but the muzzles are pretty thin.

Roger

11 July 2021, 00:35

Atkinson

Ive owned two Roddas, shot Hornady in both..never slugged the bore on either, but the cases showed no stress, and the previous owner shot them and gave me several boxes of Hornady ammo with one of them, and I used that ammo in both..Also shot handloads with Woodleigh softs and solids..

Over the years Ive found there to be more BS out there on double rifles than your average bolt action, seems to be some kind of myth on them, that Ive pretty well found to be old wives tales, I suggest one slugs the bores but it seems to me you can even shoot .411s in a .408 bore!! I have at any rate with no damage and in fact in one case better accruracy, in the other about the same..

Has the gun been Nitro tested, it should have those markings in it on the water table..

11 July 2021, 09:42

willmckee

Thanks! that's good to know. I'm not about to leave this unfired and I was really hoping there would be an easy way. So much of what's on the web is 2nd hand, 3rd hand or worse, and the same bad information keeps propagating.

I guess, from some of the posts, I should've mentioned I can read the markings on the barrels and flats and knew I had a 450/400 3" proofed at 60 grains of cordite. I wasn't trying to identify the chambering of my rifle. I just wanted to know if anybody had actually fired the Hornady ammo in an old British DR and what the results wer.

Roger

12 July 2021, 02:29

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by willmckee:
Thanks! that's good to know. I'm not about to leave this unfired and I was really hoping there would be an easy way. So much of what's on the web is 2nd hand, 3rd hand or worse, and the same bad information keeps propagating.

I guess, from some of the posts, I should've mentioned I can read the markings on the barrels and flats and knew I had a 450/400 3" proofed at 60 grains of cordite. I wasn't trying to identify the chambering of my rifle. I just wanted to know if anybody had actually fired the Hornady ammo in an old British DR and what the results wer.

Roger

I was writing for Wolfe Publishing when Hornady began introducing their rimmed cases for double rifles and they sent me a few cases of different loads for the 450/400 and 470 nitro to see how it regulated in old English double rifles.
I happen to have friends with fabulous collections of old rifles and shot the Hornady stuff in a number of rifles.
Some rifles absolutely loved it, while others were only so/so. But those rifles usually only gave so/so accuracy with Kynoch ammunition also.

12 July 2021, 05:11

Atkinson

If its nitro tested for 60 grs. of cordite,Id shoot Hornady ammo in it, mine were and I shot double rifle max handloads in both of them..a 400 gr. Woodleigh at 2000 to 2100 fps along with Horndays factory ammo...Im saying your good to go..

Btw many if not most of those older English doubles in 450-400-3" have rather massive actions and weigh in at 10.5 to 11.5 pounds or perhaps a bit more..

Todays 450-400-3" guns weigh 9 Lbs and the actions look to be light 16 ga/ or 20 ga in size. They are nice..

The old 450-400 guns weighed 10 to 11 pounds, Every 3" gun I had or know of had 410 or 411 bores..3 1/4" ran the gammunt , so be sure and slug both bores on a 3-1/4.

12 July 2021, 20:41

willmckee

This one is 10.7#. the 500NE i built on a ruger #1 only came out at 11. i expect it to be very gentle. and yes, the receiver and breech of the barrels are huge and the receiver has reinforced fences as well. At least it's very well balanced. but 2# heavier than a 458 - with a properly shaped stock - needs to weigh is heavy.

Roger

20 July 2021, 16:45

Zephyr

Will you be hand loading for this rifle or shooting Factory Ammo??

21 July 2021, 02:36

chuck375

quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
I’d suggest asking in the DR sub forum. These guys will tell you to trash it and buy a .458!

The 450/400 is an amazing cartridge. Do trash the Hornady ammo though

24 July 2021, 21:05

willmckee

I will eventually be loading for it. I love shooting this thing. like a big puppy dog. kicks about like a 35 whelen or 9.3x62.

Does anybody know of any source anywhere that still has some of the kynamco kynoch in 450/400 3"? that stuff used to be available from lots of places. I assume the covid shutdowns everywhere kept it out of production.

Roger

05 September 2021, 00:10

willmckee

So, finally found 2 boxes of Woodleigh 400 gr soft nose bullets, without having to order from Canada or Australia.

I've already loaded up my small supply of empty brass. Had published data in 3 real manuals (hornady, a-square and barnes). Just curious what the favorite load is that people have actually fired in double rifles. queue in on those last 8 words. not interested in hypotheticals.

Roger

05 September 2021, 08:07

Colin Masters

https://www.308ammo.com/KYNOCH...S-p/kynoch450400.htm

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001967771

quote:
Originally posted by willmckee:
I will eventually be loading for it. I love shooting this thing. like a big puppy dog. kicks about like a 35 whelen or 9.3x62.

Does anybody know of any source anywhere that still has some of the kynamco kynoch in 450/400 3"? that stuff used to be available from lots of places. I assume the covid shutdowns everywhere kept it out of production.

Roger

05 September 2021, 22:22

willmckee

Thanks! but midway shows discontinued and the other place unavailable.

06 September 2021, 09:13

Buglemintoday

Hey Will, are you located in Texas?

07 September 2021, 07:52

willmckee

Fort Worth.

tried it again today with 77 grains of IMR4831 and 400 gr woodleighs. windage perfect both barrels, put 10 shots in about 2" at 50 yards (which as all i can do with those sights) but was shooting 3" high.

all acedemic to me anyway. nothing better will ever be needed.

11 September 2021, 22:14

Atkinson

Well sounds like your in business and buffalo ready and I like 3 inches high, that way you can see the head in a charge, but if not get out the 3 cornor file and bring it down..get velocity up to about 2100 fps or a tad more..Most 450-400s come to zero at 80-82 grs of 4831 with a 400 gr. woodleigh soft. and a grainless for the solid..work up slowly, but your good right where you are I bet, chronograph it..

11 September 2021, 23:57

tanks

quote:
Originally posted by willmckee:
Fort Worth.

tried it again today with 77 grains of IMR4831 and 400 gr woodleighs. windage perfect both barrels, put 10 shots in about 2" at 50 yards (which as all i can do with those sights) but was shooting 3" high.

all acedemic to me anyway. nothing better will ever be needed.

You can put a 1MOA Trijicon on it then the 3" elevation would be moot once you sight it in. Below is the 4 pairs (left/right) of shots that took to sight in my Trijicon at 50 meters with the .500 NE. Slight differences between left and right barrel groups were most likely aiming with the dot at that distance. Worked great at my recent hunt.

15 September 2021, 20:28

Atkinson

2d or 3 inches high isn't all that bad in that you can see the particulars in a charghing buffalo clearly over your sights, it always suited me and my 450s were sighted in 2 inches high...Your regulation is good, you can move it down or up to what suits you...It seems to me folks get regulation and sight it mixed up as the same thing and its not, you still have the option of moving the group to where it suits you, if Im reading you right...

23 October 2021, 01:57

willmckee

Chuck375 - tending to agree with you on the Hornady ammo. My first handloads, the primers backed out. Obviously no signs of any excess pressure. checked the chambers, rim depth was about .062 in both. checked the brass. rims were maybe .052 at best. that's .010" excess headspace. or at least .004" excess. lucked up on a box of Bertram 450 basic. those rims are all .058". perfect.

My apologies to those who asked for pictures. this rifle is sort of a work in progress. now that i've shot it, it's not at the forefront of what gets fired often.

Where can I find instructions on loading pictures? is this one of those situations where I have to load them from a photo storage URL and can't just upload right off my laptop's drive?

Roger

23 October 2021, 10:45

458Win

I have had nothing but good luck with Hornady ammo. And it shot wonderfully in couple old .470 H&H Royals. Spot on and L &R barrels overlapping

30 October 2021, 19:56

willmckee

it shot OK. my handloads, first attempt shot better. but it's not asking too much for the rims to be the correct thickness. .008" below nominal is simply out of spec.

07 November 2021, 06:18

Rusty

They work in my vintage British A. Hollis and son rifle!
If you are concerned, you can order a BRD (Bullet Reducing Die) from Corbin. Use their lube and reduce the .410 to .408. Works like a charm!

Rusty
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07 November 2021, 08:14

Use Enough Gun

quote:
I have had nothing but good luck with Hornady ammo.

Butch Searcy has personally handloaded all of my 450-400 double rifle ammo for me with Hornady components-brass and both soft and solid bullets. I've shot a number of cape buffalo with it without any issue and it's been accurate.

But, I digress from the original question. . . . . .

08 November 2021, 17:31

470Evans

You may already know this but when Hornady first came out with the 450/400 the bullets were traditional lead core copper jacket. Those bullets shot exceptionally well in my 1906 vintage Jeffery sidelock.

Eventually they changed over to the DGS/DGX bullets which are a copper clad steel jacket.

The DGS/DGX I wouldn't shoot in a vintage gun, I'd use Woodleighs

24 November 2021, 00:29

Atkinson

If you had primers backing out, that can be only one thing and thats headspace, perhaps your gun may be just a tad off face, check it out and start over...

I also shot North Fork flat nose solids and cup points, also GS Customs bullets in all my doubles, was scolded by some, again for shooting 4831 powder, all of which I continued to do for years, the quasi experts had a fied day with me on that..again the world of the mistic double is rampant with BS!!