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Oh great cartridge gurus ? ? ? ?

This topic can be found at:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4321043/m/953103101

08 August 2002, 15:21
<QuarterIncherNV>
Oh great cartridge gurus ? ? ? ?
This past weekend at the gunshow I found something new, at least to me. It is a 20 caliber cartridge with a really long (for it's caliber) bullet and a DWM headstamp. If you have a moment would you take a peek at:
20 caliber?
or:
http://www.geocities.com/bttg1/cartridges/20caliber.html

I've added some rudimentary measurements (sorry, my metric calipers bit the dust) and I hope someone can shed some light on this cartridge for me.

Thanks in advance.
08 August 2002, 15:55
JackM
Hi, 1/4":
5x57R Target.
http://members.shaw.ca/curtito1/dwm.htm

Only problem is, your case is rimless. However, those who completely understand the DWM numbering system are rare indeed, and may even be extinct. A rare catch IMHO.

Bye
Jack
08 August 2002, 17:08
<mr.t>
I show this to be a 5mm x 57.8mm Sturtevant (DWM 469A). Aprox.value of $10.00. Not a real common item. Good find.
MR.T

[ 08-08-2002, 08:15: Message edited by: mr.t ]
09 August 2002, 05:14
<QuarterIncherNV>
Thank you for the identification. I had gone through my limited reference materials (mainly COTW, older brochures and auction catalogs) and hadn't found a thing. Also, thanks for the DWM ID link.

Now, that I know what the round is, does anyone have any info about when it was developed, what it was used in and exterior ballistics? I can't imagine it being a blackpowder round. A 20 caliber bore would foul quickly.
09 August 2002, 14:20
muzza
A guru I'm not , but here goes with some information on your Sturtevant - it was manufactured only by DWM for the Sturtevant Engineering Company of England ( its actually a British Cartridge not European )Circa 1902 for testing in Deutsche Gewehr Prufungs Kommission , which was the German Rifle Examining Board - a military committee which trialed rifles and calibres and decided on the adoption of new military arms .
The cartridge is based on the M88 " Mauser " case , and has the following diamensions in mms-
Bullet - 5.18 ; case - 57.89 ; rim - 11.95 ; base - 11.95 ; neck - 5.99 .
made from c.1900 to c.1902 , also used as a sporting/match cartridge.

As a bit of useless information , check to see if yours is loaded ie. it may not be a factory loaded specimen because I know as gospel that a large ( 100+) number of cases and projectiles were around some ten or more years ago and most were assembled with the official factory loading tool and then sold on the collector market . i know cos thats how my two were assembled - did em myself - and no , it wasnt me who owned them all . Interestingly there are three projectile styles 1) a pointed nickel jacketed one at 1.246"
long , 2) a round nosed ni jktd blt @ 1.317" and a longer rn ni jktd one at 1.475. Apologies for using imperial measurements , battery is dead on the electronic calipers.
Cant offer any actual velocity data or information on powders etc , but hope that helps.
09 August 2002, 14:35
muzza
Forgive me for not mentioning that this cartridge was developed specifically with smokeless powder , and whilst it has a DWM code number , don't be fooled into thinking that European cartidge numbering systems are easy to follow . DWM is but one of several , and thay are all confusing. Even the experts get confused. The big problem with metric cartridges has been the lack of english language reference books , but that has changed with the advent of two very good works written by a fellow New Zealander , although both of those books have some errors in them , mostly due to the difficulties of locating accurate data or even old catalogues . Thats it from me...
09 August 2002, 19:19
<QuarterIncherNV>
quote:
Originally posted by muzza:
As a bit of useless information , check to see if yours is loaded ie. it may not be a factory loaded specimen because I know as gospel that a large ( 100+) number of cases and projectiles were around some ten or more years ago and most were assembled with the official factory loading tool and then sold on the collector market . i know cos thats how my two were assembled - did em myself - and no , it wasnt me who owned them all . Interestingly there are three projectile styles 1) a pointed nickel jacketed one at 1.246"
long , 2) a round nosed ni jktd blt @ 1.317" and a longer rn ni jktd one at 1.475. Apologies for using imperial measurements , battery is dead on the electronic calipers.
Cant offer any actual velocity data or information on powders etc , but hope that helps.

I'm reluctant to pull the bullet but by shaking the cartridge and tapping the side of the case I'd guess that the round was empty. The round does have a very long roundnose bullet, at least for it's caliber. I wonder how this round ended up at a gunshow in Reno, Nevada for $1.00 US?

Thank you Sir Muzza for the information. I'm still very curious about the round's exterior ballistics. Seems to be seriously overbore.
09 August 2002, 19:26
<QuarterIncherNV>
Please forgive me Mr T and JackM for not acknowleding your input. Thank you.

Sleep has been elusive lately and my IQ and personality have suffered accordingly. My deepest apologies. [Embarrassed]
10 August 2002, 05:53
Iconoclast
QINV, one of the most wonderful aspects of collecting - and cartridges in particular - is the times when one discovers these gems in unexpected venues for bargain prices!
10 August 2002, 09:50
<mr.t>
Thank you for the information Muzza the only thing you didn't say is if there is one or two ply tissue in the mens room.

"ESCHEW OBFUSCATION"
10 August 2002, 10:52
muzza
a real man would rather ablute in the woods than share an unhygeinic washroom , tissue or no.