Re: Lock-N-Load Speed Sabot - Caseless Cartridge Cheat

05 February 2004, 03:46

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We hunters have to stick together, in spite of our differences.

You mean of course, stick together so long as we do it your way, right?

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What you hunt with, and what I hunt with, is of no consequence.

To you maybe. Not everyone is going to float on your boat, however, because some of us see where it is going and we really really do not like it.

Brent

07 February 2004, 06:20

Catnthehat

Arty:

For the record, I hunt with everything there is to hunt with that is legal, with the exception of inlines. I hunt in the regular season and special season with whatever strikes my fancy, sometimes a Hawken, some times a ML shotgun, sometimes a longbow,sometimes with a Sharps, sometimes with a modern smokless rifle. I hunt alone, sometimes I outfit for friends , although I no longer do it as a profession. I have entered no heads in any competition save one, and shouldn't have bothered , even though it won.

My biggest issue is with people, not with what they hunt with , but what they try to do with it. I believe that the B&C ,Seirra, etc., rules are too hard to enforce except by one's own concience. That has proven a downfall with many well known hunters being disqualified, and in some cases charged by the authorities. I hunt and fish because I love it, not to prove anything to any body. I don't have to.

catnthehat

06 February 2004, 13:25

Brent

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My point was twofold.
#1 was cat is getting angry at, and venting on people who are doing nothing wrong, except going against what he thinks is proper. He has no right- legaly or moraly to force his views on anybody.

He sure does have a right to vent. And to the extent that he has yet to hold anyone at flintlock point, he has not forced anyone. If he could persuade legislation to make this illegal, that persuasion is perfectly legal in itself and one of the tenets of Americana.

Do you have a greater right to force your views on him? Why is this "force" issue so one-way? Would you object if I asked authorities to allow me to use a radar guided cannon and canister grape shop or some other ridiculous thing? It's a free country if you are in the same one we are in - well it used to be sorta free 'til just recently, but that's another issue.

Would you object if I mount my ultrahightech rifle on a Mars Rover with a laser rangefinder built into an automated sighting system and a remote control camera so I can patrol the timber all day long from my desk? I can whack the big guy between meetings and pick up the carcass on the way home in the evening. Or better yet, have the rover beam up the GPS/UTM coordinates to a deer-retrieving service and they can have it butchered, caped and wrapped on my door step when I get home tonight. All we gotta do to make it "right" is to make it legal. Hey, we could start in your state. I'll hunt your place with my remote-rover!

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#2, and this is where Brent jumps in, Cat and Brent are suggesting that I am somehow diminishing their experience, by forcing my way on them. How I hunt has absolutly no bearing on them. I am operating within the framework of the law. They are bitching because I am not doing it their way. On the contrary, I am saying if you want to do it your way, do it. If I want to do it my way, I will do it my way. We are not hunting the same land, and we are not competing for the same animal.

You might be, but your fellow smokeless-spewing, scope-sighting, inline buddies are competing with me and cat for those deer.

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Let me ask you guys a question. Do you hunt for the personal enjoyment of the sport, and for the meat, or do you hunt for the competition and to get your name in the books.

I hunt for reasons far too complex to explain even to myself. My name appears in no books, and there are no heads on my walls. So, read that however works best for you.

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If you are only in it for the public recognition, then I personally think you are in it for the wrong reason. However, what I think is of no value to you. If that is what you want, and it is legal, do it. I don't care.

Legal ain't never made anything right. Only legal. I presume you would never be one of the SSS club with respect to wolves with that attitude. Interesting how legal=right when it's convenient and then illegal=right when it's not. I am not accusing you of this particular issue, but I've seen an awful lot of this hypocracy on this website.

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Just don't bitch at me if I don't do it your way.
If enough people think like you, then the clubs will change the rules to your way.

Democracy in action - damn, gotta hate that in this day an age!!! I am not in a club, but if you know of one that will change the rules to my rules, I will be happy to join. In the meantime, we will all bitch, as we are permitted and is legal, in hope to cause the change eventually.

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For the record, I also hold no ill for anybody. I am just tired of the way some people try to force me to act like them.

I don't hold ill for anyone either, but I also don't appreciate that what others do forces me to reconsider what I do, or suffer poorer results, shorter seasons, or reduced opportunities for whatever it is that I'm seeking. Technology is driving hunting, not only into a arms race among it's participants but also into the ground. It's far more about simply killing, and whatever gives the best odds of killing X (where X = a deer, a buck, a B&C rack, as you choose) is what everyone gravitates towards, to get that "edge". What is that edge but an advantage over everyone else?

Arty, it's been a long long time since I last hunted Michigan (with a recurve), but here in Iowa, a muzzleloader includes all of those latest and greatest creations from Knight and company, PLUS, any straight-walled cartrige handgun with any sorts of sights you want. Pretty much makes a joke of the guy out there with a roundball rifle.

In the end, it is not the "inline" issue so much as the powder, the sights, and most importantly the projectiles that have ridiculously extended their capabilities far beyond anything that was commonly used as a muzzleloader in the first half of the 19th century.

Brent

06 February 2004, 06:12

Canuck

This is a fun topic.

Here's my 2 cents (1.5 cents USD)....

I don't care what kind of firearms or bows or whatever that people like to shoot and/or hunt with. In-line muzzleloaders, high tech compound bows, crossbows, 50 BMG's etc, are all pretty neat, and it doesn't bother me if people like to hunt with them.

Here's where it starts to get tricky, though, for me at least....

If a weapon restriction is placed on a hunting season for safety reasons (ie. related to discharge of firearms in populated areas), then who cares what weapons are included (eg. shotguns with shot or slugs, muzzleloaders of all types, bows of all types)? As long as they have been deemed safe for the particular conditions, then why not include them? If, for example, a crossbow is considered a safe weapon choice for a rural area, why should it bother traditional bowhunters?

If, however, a particular hunting season was designed to allow hunting opportunity based on the fact that the associated weapon restriction reduces the odds of success (ie. more hunter days per kill, or less total mortality per season), then there may be a legitimate argument about the inclusion of weapons that increase hunter success in those categories. Hi-tech weapons in any category can jeopardize hunter opportunity in some cases, by increasing odds of success beyond what the season was designed for. And I can certainly understand why a particular user group would be upset if they lobbied for a hunting season, and then lost it because of others that used weapons that compromised the intent of the season.

The other main source of controversy, and I do believe it has some merit, is in regard to qualification for inclusion in the various record books. Fortunately for me, I don't really care about recording trophies, so this topic doesn't really get me too excited. But, I do think that the "purists" have a point. If you are going to have a record book to record trophies taken with a muzzleloader (which is separate from B&C for the same reason as P&Y, which is because it is recognized that getting a trophy with a weapon limitation is more difficult to do), should the modern in-lines be included? Is it fair for the true traditionalists to be compared at the same level with high tech in-liners? Personally, I think that at some point it kind of defeats the purpose of having a separate record book. By way of example...am I impressed that Jim Shockey has a dozen or so ML world records with his scoped in-line ML? No. I have killed comparable game (of a few of the species, not the NA 29!) under comparable circumstance...no big deal really. If he had done it with a flintlock, would I be impressed? Ya. That would be a feat. But do I have a problem with Jim Shockey's choice of weapon? Hell no. I think its cool that he hunts with something a little different, and a little more challenging than your run of the mill centerfire.

The rest is really just semantics to me. It doesn't really bother me that a cross-bow is considered a bow like my recurve. Nor does it bother me that my Thunderhawk is called a ML just like my Dad's Hawken. I am not so anal as to get hung up on names.

Anyway, I could ramble on, but I just thought I'd share a few of my disjointed and incoherent thoughts on the subject, FWIW.

Cheers,
Canuck

06 February 2004, 04:21

Hobie

Arty,

Some of us have been around since the time these hunts began. We remember the original intent. It bugs us that ML development AND game management practice have made the primitive intent of these hunts a thing of the past. It is disingenuous to suggest that using the latest Savage ML with 300 gr. saboted bullets over a charge of smokeless lit by a waterproof 209 primer is taking you back to your roots and is somehow a return to the past.

In general, game regs are often contradictory and/or unreasonable. Not in the amount of game allowed to be taken but in the method or cartridge/weapon limitations.

06 February 2004, 04:14

Hobie

I will note again that I saw this in a magazine ad and could not find it on the web site.

06 February 2004, 12:50

arty

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Arty,

Some of us have been around since the time these hunts began. We remember the original intent. It bugs us that ML development AND game management practice have made the primitive intent of these hunts a thing of the past. It is disingenuous to suggest that using the latest Savage ML with 300 gr. saboted bullets over a charge of smokeless lit by a waterproof 209 primer is taking you back to your roots and is somehow a return to the past.

In general, game regs are often contradictory and/or unreasonable. Not in the amount of game allowed to be taken but in the method or cartridge/weapon limitations.

My point was twofold.
#1 was cat is getting angry at, and venting on people who are doing nothing wrong, except going against what he thinks is proper. He has no right- legaly or moraly to force his views on anybody.
#2, and this is where Brent jumps in, Cat and Brent are suggesting that I am somehow diminishing their experience, by forcing my way on them. How I hunt has absolutly no bearing on them. I am operating within the framework of the law. They are bitching because I am not doing it their way. On the contrary, I am saying if you want to do it your way, do it. If I want to do it my way, I will do it my way. We are not hunting the same land, and we are not competing for the same animal.
Let me ask you guys a question. Do you hunt for the personal enjoyment of the sport, and for the meat, or do you hunt for the competition and to get your name in the books. If you are only in it for the public recognition, then I personally think you are in it for the wrong reason. However, what I think is of no value to you. If that is what you want, and it is legal, do it. I don't care. Just don't bitch at me if I don't do it your way.
If enough people think like you, then the clubs will change the rules to your way.
For the record, I also hold no ill for anybody. I am just tired of the way some people try to force me to act like them.