The Accurate Reloading Forums
Re: Lock-N-Load Speed Sabot - Caseless Cartridge Cheat
19 April 2004, 04:21
woodseyeRe: Lock-N-Load Speed Sabot - Caseless Cartridge Cheat
They aren't all lined up and including a bullet in any commerically available speedloader already? These have been around for a while and allow loose powder to be maintained in a column under a bullet and ready to be pushed in all in one step already. Like the new technology or not its here and in use so its not likely to go away with ever increasing deer herds and a lot of newer shooters starting out with and enjoying inline, quick loading, sure igniting methods that assure quick clean kills.
Enjoy your Savages boys, mine is at 3/4" at 100yds and right at 2300fps with the 250 grain SST Hornady. That no worry cleaning and very light recoil is nice
woods
20 March 2004, 03:26
RandyWakemanQuote:
More of the country will move to shotguns as population grows, I forsee the states outlawing long range muzzle loaders in shotgun areas.
We have had 200 yard capable factory shotshell saboted loads for years-- with the capability for three fast shots. Difference?
23 March 2004, 08:04
ReloaderBoone, sorry I didn't get back w/ you sooner.
I really love my ML 10. I have shot some groups less than a inch @ 2450 fps w/ the Hdy SST 250. It is the most accurate Muzz. I have ever tested and it will do a heck of a job on a whitetail.
I took 4 deer w/ it this past season from 25 to 155 yards. Those new SSTs will hold energy well at long distances (200-250 yds).
They have come along way w/ sabots allowing us smokeless shooters to really get that speed up.
Those SSTs only drop 3" at 200. (1.5" high at 100)
I just cant say enough for the performance of this ML.
Good Luck!
Reloader
PS- That ML 10 is the best money I have ever spent on a rifle. (That is a powerful statement when you consider whats in the safe.)
23 March 2004, 10:29
woodseyeHey Reloader......will be trying a couple of the loads you suggested to me this saturday and will let you know how I fare.
woods
26 March 2004, 14:45
rollingbQuote:
With inlines outselling traditional ML'er styles at 7-1 it don't look like the numbers are ever going to favor banning many inline hunting methods any time soon either.
Wher's the "figures" to back-up thet rediculous statement????
27 March 2004, 03:06
ReloaderI would not disbelieve that statement at all. I have read that in all diff. kinds of hunting and shooting magazines. If you don't believe that, call some of the reps for the big companies that make both.
They are out selling Traditionals big time.
Reloader
27 March 2004, 05:26
rollingbQuote:
I would not disbelieve that statement at all. I have read that in all diff. kinds of hunting and shooting magazines. If you don't believe that, call some of the reps for the big companies that make both.
They are out selling Traditionals big time.
Reloader
I have an "adversion" to believe anythin someone gits "paid to write"!!
The "reps",.... and,... the companies thet "make both",.... are still "small fish in a very large ocean"!!
30 March 2004, 08:01
Sheldon CharronDanno:
I have a Savage ML-10 stainless laminate with Accu-trigger you are interested in. I also have a TC Omega with Laminated Thumbhole stock and stainless fluted barrel. I am taking both of them to Namibia on Saturday for some plains game hunting. The Savage comes from the factory pillar bedded, or I should say, it has pillars, but there is no bedding. The fired group that came with the rifle was a tad under 1.5" with N110 powder and 300 Hornadys. The rear pillar is too high and it causes the action to pivot between the recoil lug and the rear tang. It is impossible to get the action to lay flat, and the recoil lug doesn not touch anything when bolted in. I have a friend who bedded his and is using IMR-4759. He's getting one ragged hole all day long with max charges.
I am going to bed mine tonight and do some more shooting tomorrow. With 300 grain hornadys going near 2400 FPS it should be pretty slick. Oh yeah, contrary to what people think, and even what the users' manual says, the Accutrigger on the ML's only goes down to about 3.75 pounds. I had to remove my spring and cut a few curls off it. Now it is really nice! My Omega was just about that good right out of the box. I was very impressed with the trigger.
30 March 2004, 08:13
WolfhoundQuote:
I also have a TC Omega with Laminated Thumbhole stock and stainless fluted barrel.....
My Omega was just about that good right out of the box. I was very impressed with the trigger.
I just got one of the thumbhole stocked Omegas myself. Just curious but what is your trigger pull weight? Mine breaks right at 3.14 lbs every time with no take up. It just goes. I've heard some peole complain about Omega triggers and was wondering if I just got an exeptional one or maybe all the thumhole Omegas come with great triggers.
30 March 2004, 08:31
Sheldon CharronI haven't put a weight gage on it, but all of my rifles are under 2 pounds. My Khanke muzzleloader has a 12oz trigger. While it's not as light as my Khanke, the Omega is close to my other rifles. If I had to guess, I would say ~2.5 pounds. It breaks darn near perfect. As good as any of my tweaked factory remington 700 triggers.
30 March 2004, 10:00
woodseyeAgree with you Sheldon, just recieved two Savage ML10ll in the last three weeks and both have been 3# 12-14oz at lightest setting. Springs are easy to clip and reform a tail on for adjusting. Savage won't send another spring and insists you send the gun back for trigger lightening.....not an option with me.
Have your Savage bedded around the recoil lug and fill in the blind magazine hole in the stock and fill right up to the pillar tops. Works great and no action flex at all.
woods
30 March 2004, 16:30
DannoBooneSheldon & woods,
I just dunno about the trigger on the one I just got. The
manual claims that it comes with a 2 1/2# minimum pull for
we amateurs, and 1 1/2# minimum pull for police tactical
teams (obviously for the CF models). Then I find a piece of
paper saying the acompanying rifle has a 1 1/2# minimum
trigger pull. ????????? I did a trigger job on my Encore,
resulting in a 1 1/2# pull. The Savage was set at the
lightest setting when I got it, and I notice very little
difference in the two. Perhaps I should get the trigger
pull checked on the Savage, but I really like it right
where it is.
Guess it's too late to warn Sheldon about those Namibian
women. Many of them want to come to the States, they are
not prejudiced, and some of them are pretty darned cute,
too!
30 March 2004, 16:34
DannoBooneWhoops! No, it isn't too late. Sheldon, if you're not
married, look out!! And sorry about calling the provinces
the states!
18 April 2004, 10:49
HobieRandy,
The pellets are lined up on a post that extends from the base of the sabot so that what you have is an all-in-one sabot-bullet-powder charge, IOW, a caseless cartridge to be loaded from the muzzle.
As somebody else rightly pointed out, there's a safety consideration here. But other than that...
25 April 2004, 17:41
Sheldon CharronIt's called duplexing. Check here at
www.prbullets.com. I don't know how they hold up to that velicty, but I have used the .357 bullets in my Khanke with 30" barrel to kill caribou and it was VERY flat shooting. You can hit 20 pond propane tanks with a decent hold for wind at 300 yards.
You should be able to get 300's at ~2400 FPS. That is close to many centerfires for sure.
27 April 2004, 10:05
Reloaderlofter,
There are some that have taken them way up to the velocities mentioned but, recoil is very strong.
At 2600 it is about like shooting a 3" 12ga slug in the recoil department. At those velocites I haven't achieved any accuracy. If you could get accuracy, that would be one heck of a "Long Range Muzzleloading" round.
Reloader
04 May 2004, 01:31
owensbyI just saw one of the loaders talked about with the stem and my 2 cents I think I can reload as fast with the tubes you can buy that holds a bullet and powder.Years ago I dropped a large buck by loading and shooting 3 times before it hit the ground.A fellow hunting higher on the ridge didn't believe it was a muzzleloader untill I showed him that the side lock T/C was the only rifle I had with me.
2 other times I have taken 2 deer together by loading fast,one of those I missed the first shot but the next 2 shots dropped them both.
I have a knight85,45 and 50 cal encore,ruger and a savage,love shooting them all but I have to say I love shooting the savage the most.I don't think a lot of people realize it but the savage shoots black powder sub very well also.My brother has one and believe me it will drive tacks at 100 yds.He took 3 deer with it last year.And he only shoots pyro in it.Mine I only shoot reg powder in mine and it shoots pretty darn good too,I have been wanting to get it bedded but haven't gotten around to it yet.It is the ML 11 with the regular triger and I took it down to 2 lbs and it works about as good as the new accru-trigger(have a 10fp with the accru-trigger)My encore shoots about as good as the savage but I have to clean it after shooting it.The 6 shot group is with encore and different bullets and the 5 shot is with savage.
04 May 2004, 07:12
ReloaderThat-a-way to lay em' on in there.
Nice groups!
Reloader
10 May 2004, 03:29
DannoBooneQuote:
lofter,
There are some that have taken them way up to the velocities mentioned but, recoil is very strong.
At 2600 it is about like shooting a 3" 12ga slug in the recoil department. At those velocites I haven't achieved any accuracy. If you could get accuracy, that would be one heck of a "Long Range Muzzleloading" round.
Reloader
Some of the duplex loads aren't recoiling all that bad, and
one just happens to spit them out at the fps you have
mentioned. I didn't want to even attempt any of them, but
now that they are actually being pressure tested, I feel
better about shooting a load which creates less than
50,000psi pressure. My first attempt, and I downloaded it
a little, got exactly 1 1/2" group @ 150 yards. Even though
the 10ML seemed to "buck", recoil was more of a quick push
than a kick. Wierd.
10 May 2004, 12:33
ReloaderDannoBoone,
I imagine that some loads probably dont kick near as bad as others. My best duplex (Reverse Duplex) has been a 1.8 dipper of AA2015 under a 2.8 dipper of Lil' Gun for alittle better than 2400. That load had a mild recoil and printed less than a inch at 100. The loads I tried that achieved better than 2500 weren't very accurate through my rifle and recoil was pretty strong. I could probably find the best combo of powders to get the high velocity and accuracy but, it is getting too hot around here for very much ML shooting.
The extremely wide range of loadings this Savage will shoot sure does make it a fun rifle to tinker w/.
Good Luck!
Reloader
11 May 2004, 07:44
DigitalDanI thought for a long time that this thread was on the main index header because nobody cared...silly me! Didn't know Hobie had started a firestorm.
Okay, here's my opinion: Inlines suck. There is no philosophical issue here, just plain old ballistic comparisons. They don't measure up to standards set over a century ago with Whitworth Rifles and their ilk, nor with the breech loading Sharps percussion rifles. There is no way a sabot pistol bullet can do it, I don't care how fast they're going when they exit the muzzle, their BC's suck.
Regarding the rant about smoothbores being inadequate, I know of about 70 hogs that would say, "Really?", to that one. I have no problem with the march of technology, but if you want to impress me, Inline ML's are a poor start. Do they work? Sure. Are they superior? Not yet.
Y'all have a nice day.
12 May 2004, 02:14
owensbyDan sounds like you need to try a savage,they may suck to you,(to each his own) but they sure are fun to shoot.
I remember shooting an old flintlock back in the 40's and the inlines have sure come a long way to me.Don't bother me if they are not up to the standards of the sharps or whitworth rifles I got all my muzzleloaders to injoy shooting and hunt with today.
17 May 2004, 06:57
DannoBooneQuote:
DannoBoone,
I imagine that some loads probably dont kick near as bad as others. My best duplex (Reverse Duplex) has been a 1.8 dipper of AA2015 under a 2.8 dipper of Lil' Gun for alittle better than 2400. That load had a mild recoil and printed less than a inch at 100. The loads I tried that achieved better than 2500 weren't very accurate through my rifle and recoil was pretty strong. I could probably find the best combo of powders to get the high velocity and accuracy but, it is getting too hot around here for very much ML shooting.
Reloader
One of the loads to which I was referring is 11gr N110 under
64gr H322. RBinAR (another forum) used this load for some
of his pressure testing under a 250gr SST. Pressure of the
load was a little over 44,000psi sending the bullet out at
2600fps. He tried a similar load with Lil Gun, got fewer
fps, but the pressure was 56,000psi. This stuff is getting
interesting!
Being recoil sensitive (have also installed a mercury recoil
reducer and a Simms butt pad), I loaded down to 10gr N110
under 60gr H322 under the 250gr SST and got a 1 1/2" group
@ 150yds, very promising. The weather hasn't been
cooperating here with more wind than I've ever seen before,
so I haven't been able to get in much shooting for grouping
at all. I suppose it'll get hot here, too, before it
decides to quit blowing so much (then we'll be WISHING for
breezes)!
At any rate, the recoil with the load I used at only 5 total
grains less than the one RBinAR used, just wasn't bad at
all. It was more of a "buck" and quick push than a "kick".
18 May 2004, 12:11
woodseyeI had every intention of trying duplex and reverse duplex loads in my Savage but the N110 just shot so good right from the start that I kept working with it and ended up pushing 1/2" at 100yds. I think the bedding and barrel crowning probably made some difference along with the accu-trigger performing very well.
woods