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Administrator |
Exactly! But who started it?? | |||
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One of Us |
…it really doesn’t matter. Two wrongs etc… | |||
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Administrator |
Who committed the first wrong? YOU the bloody Brits! Who had absolutely no right to give Palestine to the Zionists! And now your Zionist puppet, Cameron, is doing everything he can to promote the Zionists crimes against humanity! Someone in the UK should paint THE BALFOUR DECLARATION on the British Parliament! So more people are aware of the British crime that never stopped giving! | |||
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One of Us |
OK, it's our fault. Does that solve anything or make anyone feel any better...? | |||
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Administrator |
It might. If you got off your stupid arses and started calling a spade a spade! Instead of having your heads so far up the Zionists arse you never see the day light! I don’t think any reasonable person likes to see what is going on. And it is not, never, going to be solved as long as the West backing the occupiers! Someone has to stand up and say enough is enough. The Palestinians NEED their own country, controlled by themselves. Not a glorified concentration camp controlled by the Zionists! | |||
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One of Us |
It doesn't change anything one iota.
I agree, but they wont get it from a terrorist group who murder Israeli citizens. Hamas is largely funded by Iran. Iran's goal is the removal of the state Israel, not the future or the welfare of the Palestinian people. They are two utterly different goals.
...and low long was it after Israel became independent that she was attacked by her neighbours? It was 1 day. Is it any wonder that Israel has learnt to defend itself ... ? Isreal has a right to exist, and the right to do so without being attacked. | |||
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One of Us |
All true, but until Netanyahu goes there will never be a Palestinian State, Hamas or no Hamas. He has spent decades doing everything he can to undermine that prospect and the long term goal of achieving a sustainable peace. | |||
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Administrator |
Would you NOT attack someone taking over your homes?? Oh, you need to WAIT until they kill you all! Bloody hell Nute! Where is common sense?? Someone takes over your country, and you do nothing?? | |||
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One of Us |
Israel took Egyptian homes, Jordanian homes, Syrian homes, Iraqi homes, Lebanese homes .. because that's who attacked them. But this is water under the bridge, both sides have done horrendous things to the other however we are where we are. Whose fault it was, who started it, tit for tat, none of that is going to solve it. The more Hamas perpetrates terror against Isreal the harder Israel is going to respond, and the more recruits are driven to Hamas. It's a vicious circle. Israel is not going away, the only solution will be one which recognises that, like it or not. | |||
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Administrator |
Again, you are playing ignorance! The Arab countries attacked the new declared ILLEGAL Zionist Entity! What happened to Palestine? You know, the country your bloody government gave to the Zionist, asking them not to violate their rights?? Foreign Office November 2nd, 1917 Dear Lord Rothschild: I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet: His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non- Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours, Arthur James Balfour | |||
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One of Us |
No, just pointing out the fallacy of your analogy. If you put the text of the BD in your sig line you wouldn't need to copy and paste it to every post - just trying to help ... Israel isn't going away, that's all there is to it. I have absolute sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, what is happening to them is wrong, but so it supporting Hamas in its attacks on Israel. | |||
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One of Us |
Nute, I believe Seeds sentiments to be representative of 21st century Islam. If I am correct, what is there really for the West or Israel to negotiate, discuss, or use diplomacy on? I have federal representatives right here in my Capital that advocate the "river to the sea" method. There's no parlay there. We didn't scrub Afghanistan squeaky clean of Taliban while we were there and now loow what we got. There's little difference in Gaza. | |||
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One of Us |
Saeed, the biggest difference is that the Israelis call it a tragic mistake. The folks in Palestine come out and celebrate in the streets over the atrocities committed in their name. | |||
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Administrator |
The tragic mistake was the Brits giving Palestine to the Zionists to atone for YOUR crimes against the Jews. You are making the Palestinians pay for YOUR crimes against humanity. Murdering millions of Jews, then washing your hands off this unbelievable crime, by committing another incredible crime against humanity in Occupied Palestine. You really ARE just plain SICK if you cannot see it for what it is. Some of you keep saying two wrongs don't make it right. Dead right about that. YOU created those two wrongs! Have some balls and face it! | |||
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Administrator |
NitanHitler isn't listening! And you lot are Kissling his arse! Sending him money and weapons, so he can continue to commit his crimes against humanity, with YOUR tacit support! | |||
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One of Us |
Ok, so my thoughts for what it's worth. I committed no crimes against Jews and feel no guilt. My lineage is Scandinavian, British and other very western European. I have no German or other anti semitic history in me. As an aside I also have no genocidal past against indigenous Americans. My ancestors landed in California in about 1900 so we burned no villages, took no scalps. Fact; Israelites have a long history in Palestine. Fact: Israelites began returning to Palestine from the Diaspora long before your famous British letter. As an American who feels no responsibility or guilt for historical grievances I do believe that the people and culture with historical ties to what they consider their homeland have a right to repatriate. Simply put, that your side believes they should be geographically erased puts us at odds. So repost your letter til Hell freezes over, continue your "river to the sea" chant. But this tax paying American is going to promote sending guns and bombs to the Israelites until the Islamic terrorist attack stop. | |||
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One of Us |
What nonsense. Your 1917 letter--which must be worn out by now--is dated decades before Nazis--NOT the US or Britain--exterminated Jews. I haven't made up my mind, but am inclined to support Israel until Hamas is exterminated. | |||
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One of Us |
Scott, I can absolutely see Saeed’s point, but it’s the past and we are now umpteen years down the road with Israel as a democratic state and that’s not going to change. We therefore have to deal with what we have now. I also get your point about dealing with terrorists. I do however also see that if you are being treated like a prisoner in your own home you turn to the only people who are fighting back, even though their goals are not your own welfare. The Palestinians have been treated like shit by Israel for ages. The world is outraged by what Hamas did last year and rightly so, but do you remember what happened at Shatila and Sabra camps? Thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese civilians massacred by Christian phalanges with the cooperation of the Israelis who whilst they wernt pulling the trigger actually blocked the exit routes so the victims couldn’t escape. This tit for tat shit has gone on for years with each side adding each atrocity to the long list of things they need to exact vengeance for. It’s not as simple as just killing all of Hamas in Gaza, in doing so Israel is just creating the next generation of recruits and filling them with resolve to take revenge. Hamas aren’t all nice and neatly in Gaza, they are in the West Bank and Lebanon too. And they aren’t the only group funded by Iran to fight Israel. | |||
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Administrator |
Remember who created Hamas to counter the Palestinian Liberation Front?? Non other than the Zionists themselves. Not much different to America, Pakistan and Saudi creating the Taliban! | |||
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One of Us |
I disagree in that Israel has received more foreign aid from the US than any other country and have spend decades undermining any prospect for peace so that they can expand the land mass that they claim through "settlers". I think we need to put a lot more pressure on Israel to become a partner in the peace process and make some hard compromises. | |||
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One of Us |
In 2006 the then leadership Hamas (who was at that time president of the Palestinian Authority under Fatah overall control) wrote to Bush II and the Israeli government proposing the formation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders with a 50 year armistice both sides within which to find permanent peace. Neither Israel or Bush 2 responded. Around that time I think they also agreed to recognise PLO control over such a state and stated that they would abide by a peace deal supported by a majority of Palestinians. Relations have since gone to a sack of crap, at the fault of both sides. | |||
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One of Us |
First, let's you and I agree we're just talking here. We happen to differ on this topic and it really doesn't matter personally. When you say "we therefore have to deal with," ,.... the we as in you and I is sensible. You and I could sit over tea and as neighbors agree to any solution. Our fence, your lawn, my dog, your trees,.... If your "we" includes Saeed and friends, well it's plain his "river to the sea" isn't negotiable an he don't even live there! Probably has never visited. Hey, I have no doubt the guy is smarter than I am , wiser and more judicious, but it's obvious on this he and they don't bend. So I remember Arafat and Carter, Sadat and Carter, I remember my embassy being bombed in Beirut, Pan Am over Scotland,.... The West has been working on this for decades and Saeed thinks our success has been nil. History say "we" cannot deal. | |||
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One of Us |
As I see it, the Israeli's biggest problem in their war on Hamas is that they are trying to minimize Israeli casualties and get the war over as quickly as possible (for multiple reasons). They are unwilling to send ground troops in to battle the Hamas fighters in close infantry combat, they are using air strikes and area effect weapons. The fire is indiscriminate in who it kills. If you drop a precision bomb on a rocket launcher hidden behind kids, you get the rocket launcher and also the kids. The US took a lot of unnecessary casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan because we sent in infantry to neutralize these spots, and usually sent in local troops in areas that we deemed too "sensitive" to local concerns (and our guys said way too many of the bad actors got away because of this...). If Netanyahu wants to win the war, he's going to have to either start making the unpopular choice domestically of taking a lot more casualties, or he's going to continue on the path of allowing other nations to condemn his forces for excessive brutality and "genocide" and risk getting his war stopped by others before he actually accomplishes what his goal is. As it is, the number of noncombatant killed is going to cause more long term trouble than the war solves unless he is able to either show some sort of believable restraint (to the Palestinians) or kills so many that they themselves decide that terrorism and resistance is a failure and come to the peace table begging for being allowed to unconditionally surrender. | |||
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One of Us |
Let Biden do it. He bragged about killing an Afghan water delivery man and the kids around him. Took that "terrorist" right out. Then Israel comes out clean handed. | |||
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One of Us |
They have spent more on bombs than that place is worst. Flood the tunnels with seawater and kill every terrorist. Build a better wall and let them have it. Like many other people groups, the Palestinians will never prosper and continue to blame others for their lack of development! | |||
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One of Us |
True. But you left out the part where the US will probably pay the lion's share of the cost of rebuilding Gaza, once Israel has destroyed as much as they wish. | |||
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One of Us |
Those days need to come to an end. That money needs to be used to build more in house superconductor/chip plants, increase our military and implement an effect way to control the southern border. | |||
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Administrator |
I hope they never stop fighting back! Imagine where Hitler would be now if the Nazis were not defeated! Zionism is nothing but a new form of Nazis. And I can GUARANTEE you the present situation, geographically, will never last! The non stop expansion of the New Nazi Entity's WILL stop. | |||
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new member |
It’s odd to me that the Jews that established the country of Israel get all the blame for taking “Palestinian” land while the surrounding Arab countries that no doubt took more “Palestinian” land get a pass. Coincide, I think not. Israel is not giving up one square inch of their country. The last fifty years prove this. If the Arab nation wants the Palestinian’s to have a country they should give back the lands they stole. | |||
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One of Us |
How's that for diplomacy?!?!?! If the standard, run of the mill diplomacy doesn't work in the above case, maybe the West should try a Talking Circle. Perhaps a Town Hall Meeting or a Love In like Woodstock could be productive. Hypnotic Therapy? Reparations! I like that one. The Palestinians don't need to wait for the 72 virgins in Heaven if they can buy them here and now with reparations! Come on guys! I think you all agree I'm on to something! | |||
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One of Us |
I think that's great and I agree. As Saeed has said he thinks Hamas should continue the fight, where do you see Hamas making hard compromises? Your Western sensibilities don't seem to translate to well to the East. | |||
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One of Us |
Sure Scott, I would call this an effort to make a hard compromise: In 2006 the then leadership Hamas (who was at that time president of the Palestinian Authority under Fatah overall control) wrote to Bush II and the Israeli government proposing the formation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders with a 50 year armistice both sides within which to find permanent peace. Neither Israel or Bush 2 responded. Now can you please answer the question I asked of you earlier: Do you support the rights of all people to return to their homeland or just the Jewish residents? You seem fine with "the river to the sea" as long as it is the Israelis who have it all. I think both side deserve a homeland. | |||
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Administrator |
Especially their homeland for thousands of years. Not imported individuals just because they are members of a religion! They had to be removed from their homes. Their homes are demolished. New ILLEGAL COLONIES are built to house the ILLEGALLY brought people from other countries. Then they are placed in an overcrowded concentration camp. With everything outside the camp is controlled by the illegal occupiers. Including water supply, electricity, Internet, banking, etc. And they complain when these people say enough is enough. And fight back! Good on them! NEVER, EVER, allow criminals to win. No matter how long it takes. Or who supports them! | |||
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One of Us |
The 67 border is essentially Israel less Gaza and the West Bank, both of which were captured/occupied in the 6 day war. Obama made reference to this in a speech saying these should be the borders, which really pissed off Netanyahu ( I think ) or whoever was at the helm in Israel at the time. That ship has sailed though because it’s unachievable now politically from the Israeli side. All of the WB settlements would need to be removed. Saeed is absolutely correct in that many of the legal owners of the land in the WB were booted off by Israeli settlers. | |||
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One of Us |
Wars have territorial consequences I think? Seems my side gained a little dirt in our war with Mexico. | |||
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One of Us |
2006! Okay. Sorry I didn't mean to ignore the question. That's not a yes or no answer for me. Should the Navajo give up their land in Arizona and return to Alaska, letting the Pima have it back? Should you and I move off our land and I for example return to Scandinavia? I emphatically wish peace and prosperity very specifically on the Palestinian people and as an American would be happy to contribute to their peaceful existence and prosperity. Because I'm from here, (like you,) I don't believe I have a clue what that means. I believe those folks need to sort out their mess and priorities and if I can contribute to peace and happiness I'm happy to write a check or send a package. Again, I believe those folks need to sort out their mess and their priorities. So, Israel, Hamas, go teams! I think as long as Hamas uses terrorism and continues to hide in kindergarten classrooms and hospitals there's gonna be a whole lot of Palestinian dead and I can only see laying blame in one lap. | |||
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One of Us |
Sometimes ... as the 67 boundaries have been bought up I thought I would elaborate just in case anyone was wondering... | |||
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One of Us |
We should extract some of the military aid we give Israel to compensate the Palestinians for their lands that were taken. I don't much hold with governments that take private property without just compensation. They grate on my libertarian streak. But I have no tolerance for religious governments of any stripe. | |||
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