quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
A blog run by a guy banned from Wall Street for insider trading quoting a Falun Gong-owned "news source" interviewing a guy whose own family says is full of shit...

quote:

Eisenhower

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I would bet every dollar in my wallet right now, and I am on holiday in San Diego with a full wallet, that we enter into WWIII within the next decade. I am certainly raising my son to be prepared for such as he will be fighting age.

Thus, I want the biggest baddest military on earth. No complaint by me. I would have already spanked Iran a little in this latest crisis.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I would bet every dollar in my wallet right now, and I am on holiday in San Diego with a full wallet, that we enter into WWIII within the next decade. I am certainly raising my son to be prepared for such as he will be fighting age.

Thus, I want the biggest baddest military on earth. No complaint by me. I would have already spanked Iran a little in this latest crisis.

I was in San Diego yesterday, picked up an HP8563 spectrum analyzer for 10 GHz amateur radio testing, would have bought you a beer (or a jigger of Four Roses) if I'd known you were there...

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Every dollar of defense spending reduces the world's wealth by much more than that dollar, by design.

Modern warfare aims at a reverse return-on-investment, destruction of strategic assets worth more than the cost of the weapon.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
According to Eric Schmitt of the NYT
we ran out of giving the Ukraine old stock in 2022.
Ammo, rockets, artillery ect are all current stock.
I doubt if the Tanks sent were worn to the point of unusable.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Not sure what your point is?
The tanks had to be usable to be effective, hence my comment.
We can not expect them to win with rubbish, or munitions that wouldnt go off.
Schmitt didnt comment on the age of the old stock, but I doubt there was much corrosive primed ammo involved. Anyway, according to him old stock, whatever age it was, is gone.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
While I don’t disagree with either keeping a strong military or aiding Ukraine, I’m not so sure we can say there hasn’t been a lot of waste.

Our “useless” munitions seem to be working ok. They aren't "useless", they are non-deployable without a waiver of Regulations, which would have to be approved by people Senator Tuberville won't let be confirmed.

Somehow I doubt that if we got in a hot war that we would be saying that these arms are useless, destroy them. There are only so many tanks to destroy, and our deployable stockpile is more than sufficient. And yes, munition disposal takes place during time of conflict, otherwise we'd have shells stacked in parking lots. Over time corporate lobbyists have gotten use-by dates imposed on almost all military materiel, the consumables, regardless of how long it is shelf-stable. These dates, assigned at manufacture, control when that materiel can be deployed to our forces outside CONUS. Nothing is deployed within six months of that expiration.

We should be learning a lesson from the Ukrainians… how do you rapidly ramp up your military in a time of modern warfare; and what mistakes to avoid for casualties. Yes, we should learn how to yell for help. Maybe even practice it.

Then implement them.

Such as perhaps some sort of universal training. I suppose we could teach everybody how to march around, but most military specialties are now pretty technical and require ongoing currency training to keep up. Anything below National Guard-level involvement is essentially useless.

One lesson that I think is coming clear- force projection is much more difficult than force disruption.

As to economics, while I agree that spending wholesale on defense takes money and talent away from civilian side uses, we also have shown over the decades that while government has a role, government is also one of the least efficient spenders.

From a defense point of view…

We should be modernizing and upgrading the power grid. President Biden's Infrastructure Law strengthens the grid, in fact $13 billion was just made available for that a couple weeks ago. It's worth noting that a majority of Republicans in both Houses voted against it. Link

We should be working on modernizing and upgrading our freight rail system. Biden's Infrastructure Law has $66 billion for that, against the wishes of most Republicans in Congress.

We should be addressing health care surge capacity- especially in smaller/high need markets. Guess who is doing just that... Link

We need to get government out of trying to manage outcomes of private persons.

We should be strengthening police forces while reducing intrusive monitoring (read patriot act and some of the NSA surveillance.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
My EOD buddy, who does exactly what we are talking about, quartermaster. They change fuses on bombs, but they have a 40 yr shelf life. We have none anywhere near that old.
Any munitions, less ones that have escaped detection, are sent as part of (aid). The gov promises countries aid left and right. Old munitions has value as part of X dollars in aid to countries. He said seldom is munition blown up, except in training.
I think you are a bit out-dated in your info.
Read defense reporter, Micaela Burrows article on How long it will take the US to replenish weapons stock.
For things like 155's, it's 5-7 years. Thats if Taiwan doesnt need more first.

quote:

What cost too the world would it be if Russia had have been allowed to roll through Ukraine?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
While I don’t disagree with either keeping a strong military or aiding Ukraine, I’m not so sure we can say there hasn’t been a lot of waste.

Our “useless” munitions seem to be working ok.

Somehow I doubt that if we got in a hot war that we would be saying that these arms are useless, destroy them.

We should be learning a lesson from the Ukrainians… how do you rapidly ramp up your military in a time of modern warfare; and what mistakes to avoid for casualties.

Then implement them.

Such as perhaps some sort of universal training.

One lesson that I think is coming clear- force projection is much more difficult than force disruption.

As to economics, while I agree that spending wholesale on defense takes money and talent away from civilian side uses, we also have shown over the decades that while government has a role, government is also one of the least efficient spenders.

From a defense point of view…

We should be modernizing and upgrading the power grid.

We should be working on modernizing and upgrading our freight rail system.

We should be addressing health care surge capacity- especially in smaller/high need markets.

We need to get government out of trying to manage outcomes of private persons.

We should be strengthening police forces while reducing intrusive monitoring (read patriot act and some of the NSA surveillance.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Every dollar of defense spending reduces the world's wealth by much more than that dollar, by design.

Modern warfare aims at a reverse return-on-investment, destruction of strategic assets worth more than the cost of the weapon.

That might be true, if you are the Aggressor. I do not see that as correct if you are defending yourself or helping someone else defend themselves.

What cost too the world would it be if Russia had have been allowed to roll through Ukraine?

If nothing was done do you think he would have stopped at Ukraines borders voluntarily?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
While I don’t disagree with either keeping a strong military or aiding Ukraine, I’m not so sure we can say there hasn’t been a lot of waste.

Our “useless” munitions seem to be working ok.

Somehow I doubt that if we got in a hot war that we would be saying that these arms are useless, destroy them.

We should be learning a lesson from the Ukrainians… how do you rapidly ramp up your military in a time of modern warfare; and what mistakes to avoid for casualties.

Then implement them.

Such as perhaps some sort of universal training.

One lesson that I think is coming clear- force projection is much more difficult than force disruption.

As to economics, while I agree that spending wholesale on defense takes money and talent away from civilian side uses, we also have shown over the decades that while government has a role, government is also one of the least efficient spenders.

From a defense point of view…

We should be modernizing and upgrading the power grid.

We should be working on modernizing and upgrading our freight rail system.

We should be addressing health care surge capacity- especially in smaller/high need markets.

We need to get government out of trying to manage outcomes of private persons.

We should be strengthening police forces while reducing intrusive monitoring (read patriot act and some of the NSA surveillance.

Doc, come on!

There's no comparison between the USA and Ukraine, none. There's nothing to learn from those in and out of the USSR idiots.

You see it as much as I do, our civilian infrastructure is in shambles. Bridges and roads in disrepair, crumbling levees and dams, it's the new normal for our electricity grid to simply fail. Are we any better prepared for a real biological attack than we were for Corona? If we are to go to war in the near future, is it really a good idea to do it with the current crop growing up in the educational system we're currently offering?

We certainly don't need a bunch of new tanks and drones.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It's our stuff Ukraine is using.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying we're learning from Ukraine how to use our own stuff. I'm having a hard time with that.

I do understand there's lessons to be drawn from most of any situations and even watching a fellow walk out on the highway in front of a speeding bus can be informative. In this case, I suspect the real enlightenment is the true capabilities of Russia, which from here don't look like to much.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
While I don’t disagree with either keeping a strong military or aiding Ukraine, I’m not so sure we can say there hasn’t been a lot of waste.

Our “useless” munitions seem to be working ok. They aren't "useless", they are non-deployable without a waiver of Regulations, which would have to be approved by people Senator Tuberville won't let be confirmed.
The point being the items are hardly of no value to us. We were using WWII surplus 50 ammo at the start of Iraq.
Somehow I doubt that if we got in a hot war that we would be saying that these arms are useless, destroy them. There are only so many tanks to destroy, and our deployable stockpile is more than sufficient. And yes, munition disposal takes place during time of conflict, otherwise we'd have shells stacked in parking lots. Over time corporate lobbyists have gotten use-by dates imposed on almost all military materiel, the consumables, regardless of how long it is shelf-stable. These dates, assigned at manufacture, control when that materiel can be deployed to our forces outside CONUS. Nothing is deployed within six months of that expiration.
I have read in Jane’s that we do not have adequate supplies of many munitions. High on that list are SAMs and AAMs. We supposedly have so few of the SM2 SAMs that the navy has to pull them from a ship coming off deployment and place them on one leaving for deployment. Do you think we have a javelin for anywhere near every Chinese tank?

We should be learning a lesson from the Ukrainians… how do you rapidly ramp up your military in a time of modern warfare; and what mistakes to avoid for casualties. Yes, we should learn how to yell for help. Maybe even practice it.
You are a fool if you believe that.

Then implement them.

Such as perhaps some sort of universal training. I suppose we could teach everybody how to march around, but most military specialties are now pretty technical and require ongoing currency training to keep up. Anything below National Guard-level involvement is essentially useless.

One lesson that I think is coming clear- force projection is much more difficult than force disruption.

As to economics, while I agree that spending wholesale on defense takes money and talent away from civilian side uses, we also have shown over the decades that while government has a role, government is also one of the least efficient spenders.

From a defense point of view…

We should be modernizing and upgrading the power grid. President Biden's Infrastructure Law strengthens the grid, in fact $13 billion was just made available for that a couple weeks ago. It's worth noting that a majority of Republicans in both Houses voted against it. Link
Biden has also targeted a lot of that spending in ways that don’t preserve the grid. Most is on development of green alternatives, not increasing grid capacity or capability.

We should be working on modernizing and upgrading our freight rail system. Biden's Infrastructure Law has $66 billion for that, against the wishes of most Republicans in Congress.
Really? Aren’t all the freight rails private? What is he spending it on specifically?

We should be addressing health care surge capacity- especially in smaller/high need markets. Guess who is doing just that... Link
He’s giving money to some facilities, not resolving lack. Much of this is aimed at DEI.

We need to get government out of trying to manage outcomes of private persons.

We should be strengthening police forces while reducing intrusive monitoring (read patriot act and some of the NSA surveillance.

You're just voting for the wrong folks.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I agree 100% above Jeffi, but you just went against your own posts. You were claiming this was all old stuff we were going to destroy anyway. Now it's to expensive to practice the use Ukraine is using them for.
I go back to my posts. None of this is useless supplies we are sending, of no account to us.
Personal belief of whether we should be sending it, or spending money elsewhere, is a different matter.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
While I don’t disagree with either keeping a strong military or aiding Ukraine, I’m not so sure we can say there hasn’t been a lot of waste.

Our “useless” munitions seem to be working ok. They aren't "useless", they are non-deployable without a waiver of Regulations, which would have to be approved by people Senator Tuberville won't let be confirmed.
The point being the items are hardly of no value to us. We were using WWII surplus 50 ammo at the start of Iraq.
Somehow I doubt that if we got in a hot war that we would be saying that these arms are useless, destroy them. There are only so many tanks to destroy, and our deployable stockpile is more than sufficient. And yes, munition disposal takes place during time of conflict, otherwise we'd have shells stacked in parking lots. Over time corporate lobbyists have gotten use-by dates imposed on almost all military materiel, the consumables, regardless of how long it is shelf-stable. These dates, assigned at manufacture, control when that materiel can be deployed to our forces outside CONUS. Nothing is deployed within six months of that expiration.
I have read in Jane’s that we do not have adequate supplies of many munitions. High on that list are SAMs and AAMs. We supposedly have so few of the SM2 SAMs that the navy has to pull them from a ship coming off deployment and place them on one leaving for deployment. Do you think we have a javelin for anywhere near every Chinese tank?

We should be learning a lesson from the Ukrainians… how do you rapidly ramp up your military in a time of modern warfare; and what mistakes to avoid for casualties. Yes, we should learn how to yell for help. Maybe even practice it.
You are a fool if you believe that.

Then implement them.

Such as perhaps some sort of universal training. I suppose we could teach everybody how to march around, but most military specialties are now pretty technical and require ongoing currency training to keep up. Anything below National Guard-level involvement is essentially useless.

One lesson that I think is coming clear- force projection is much more difficult than force disruption.

As to economics, while I agree that spending wholesale on defense takes money and talent away from civilian side uses, we also have shown over the decades that while government has a role, government is also one of the least efficient spenders.

From a defense point of view…

We should be modernizing and upgrading the power grid. President Biden's Infrastructure Law strengthens the grid, in fact $13 billion was just made available for that a couple weeks ago. It's worth noting that a majority of Republicans in both Houses voted against it. Link
Biden has also targeted a lot of that spending in ways that don’t preserve the grid. Most is on development of green alternatives, not increasing grid capacity or capability.

We should be working on modernizing and upgrading our freight rail system. Biden's Infrastructure Law has $66 billion for that, against the wishes of most Republicans in Congress.
Really? Aren’t all the freight rails private? What is he spending it on specifically?

We should be addressing health care surge capacity- especially in smaller/high need markets. Guess who is doing just that... Link
He’s giving money to some facilities, not resolving lack. Much of this is aimed at DEI.

We need to get government out of trying to manage outcomes of private persons.

We should be strengthening police forces while reducing intrusive monitoring (read patriot act and some of the NSA surveillance.

You're just voting for the wrong folks.

Nope. Our political system is failing the people because they are more worried about reelection and politics than the nation. Neither party is sound. I’m still stuck voting for the lessor of two turds… thanks to Trump, I’ve decided that there is a lower bar to realpolitik that I’m no longer willing to support.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
You don’t think Russia is restraining itself due to NATO and its potential involvement?

As I understood Soviet doctrine, these tougher choke points were to be reduced by NBC means. That they haven’t shows something.

As to lessons from Ukraine-
Tactics to utilize light infantry to hold against combined arms forces.

Economical use of air and armor in the defense.

Issues with assault in the face of modern capabilities.

How to produce a combat effective defense force from nothing with minimal pre conflict training.

How to expedite training regimens for troops. What is minimally necessary and what is highest value? Remember this is conscript vs professional; our current regimen is about 50 years old and was not aimed at modern warfare, but rather counter insurgency (Vietnam). It was not time stressed like WWII, Korea, or WWI.

So on.


While our military is first rate, they can (and should) learn from others. One thing that I suspect they are looking at is how to maintain logistics in an era of drones if one does not have air superiority.

Ukraine was able to mount a defense from an unready position. They have been amazingly successful; how much was only because of western aid, and thus we should evaluate stockpile requirements and how much logistical use current operations need.

I suspect lessons from Ukraine will be heavily used in CGSC for the next generation or so.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Uhh Jeffi, my EOD buddy ran the hollowman afb bomb dump.
Thats exactly what they fired, the oldest stock first. They had Germans, Thailanders and others all training there, firing those rounds.
I'm sure back when you were in, they destroyed lots of 45-70 ammo for your trapdoor springfields.
But you are not up to date on what is going on now.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
DoD fails 6th audit
https://www.stripes.com/theate...unding-12064619.html