Paint the arguments any way you like, gun rights supporters are losing Don't let the slew of carry laws & such the last few years fool you. It can all come crashing down overnight unless the narrative changes that is convincing more & more people that guns & gun rights laws are having too much of an uncivil effect on this country. I'm not here to argue against guns, I own them as do most of my kids. But the right wing pro 2nd amendment types seem to have ZERO to contribute to solutions to the gun deaths issue. You blabber on about training, morals, responsibility, parenting, mental illness, etc., but do absolutely nothing. While the right wing can get laws passed for stand your ground, concealed & open carry, etc, they haven't made a single effort anywhere that I know of to get gun safety courses in our educational system, or any such program that might help. Nothing. Get going or win the battles & lose the war.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...d2e026f3b33fbe&ei=18

It takes push, and money to make any difference. Mentally ill people need care of a sort that doesn't come for free, and from what I've read all shooters have untreated problems. It takes tax money spent on people you wouldn't sit with in church, the kind of money Ronald Reagan saved as governor.

And that isn't necessarily enough. Some of the worst ones aren't obvious, like the Las Vegas shooter. There really aren't that many, needles in a big haystack. You could argue that all mass shooters are screwups, but very few screwups become mass shooters.

We might take comfort in the composition of the Supreme Court, thanks to Trump's overreaching.
Nine could easily enough become thirteen, given an ambitious Democratic Comgress.

I agree with the OP. We have placed our heads firmly in the sand. We (by "we" I mean gun enthusiasts) have refused to acknowledge the possible root causation; we have chosen instead to simply bluster and argue. We all choose to accept short term, limited, success, and care not that we have done nothing to address the issue.
Our social structure is seriously broken and won't be easily fixed. When we hear that some sacrifice in time, money, or lifestyle, might be necessary, we put our collective fingers in our ears and hum.
It might have taken money and effort, but now, I fear it is too late. The NRA, and gun owners in general are unwilling to admit that the right to own and carry guns should, perhaps, not be universal. The anti-gunners, while perfectly happy to deny guns to everyone, balk at the idea that some people should be singled out. I'll confess to being pessimistic. Regards, Bill

The NRA and ilk should be eyeball deep in gun safety, safe gun storage and practices. That it isn't is obviously self defeating.

You can't legislate mentally ill people!

quote:

that the right to own and carry guns should, perhaps, not be universal

every American has a right to self defense-

the right to life,liberty and pusuit of happiness -

the right to keep and bear arms,
primarily for self defense,
but also,for defense of our neighbors and fellow countrymen

self defense,
by what ever readily available commonly obtainable technology -

in todays term s firearms

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.”
― Thomas Jefferson


“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
― Jeff Cooper, Art of the Rifle


“Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard, don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like.”
― Alan M. Dershowitz


“Civil Wars happen when the victimized are armed. Genocide happens when they are not.”
― A.E. Samaan


“Regulated" rights are not rights. They are niceties and platitudes intended to keep the populace thinking their individual autonomy is respected by their government.”
― A.E. Samaan

“I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government." --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, 1787

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."- Col. Jeff Cooper (1920-2006)

“When bad men combine, the good must associate: else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” -- Edmund Burke

“A smart man only believes half of what he hears, a wise man knows which half.”
― Jeff Cooper

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

that the right to own and carry guns should, perhaps, not be universal

every American has a right to self defense-

the right to life,liberty and pusuit of happiness -

the right to keep and bear arms,
primarily for self defense,
but also,for defense of our neighbors and fellow countrymen

self defense,
by what ever readily available commonly obtainable technology -

in todays term s firearms

So, there you have it. Even the mentally deficient, even those intent on doing harm, even the drug addict, the pimp, the thief. Even the shooter in Uvalde, in Las Vegas, in Virginia or (insert location here). Even the gang member or the extremist. This is the contention and it is defensible; as long as one ignores any negative impact of universal right. I'm just not sure that is wise anymore. Regards, Bill

“Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

Benjamin Franklin

The NRA has the Eddie Eagle gun safety program and our local gun club has a safety program. How do you single out people that shouldn't own a gun or even a car for that matter. I know people that aren't smart enough to use a hammer; even with a city ordinance against using a hand held cell phone while driving, I still see people doing it. Hell, you can bet that at least 25% of the people in Wichita Falls will run a stop sign or do a rolling stop.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Paint the arguments any way you like, gun rights supporters are losing Don't let the slew of carry laws & such the last few years fool you. It can all come crashing down overnight unless the narrative changes that is convincing more & more people that guns & gun rights laws are having too much of an uncivil effect on this country. I'm not here to argue against guns, I own them as do most of my kids. But the right wing pro 2nd amendment types seem to have ZERO to contribute to solutions to the gun deaths issue. You blabber on about training, morals, responsibility, parenting, mental illness, etc., but do absolutely nothing. While the right wing can get laws passed for stand your ground, concealed & open carry, etc, they haven't made a single effort anywhere that I know of to get gun safety courses in our educational system, or any such program that might help. Nothing. Get going or win the battles & lose the war.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...d2e026f3b33fbe&ei=18

A few years back my state adopted Constitutional Carry and the libs lost their collective minds screaming about Wild West shootouts in the streets and less safety and more shootings. Hasn't happened.

Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

The issue is that you cannot punish people for infractions or crimes which they have not yet committed.

Certainly, it is not appropriate to diminish one's Constitutional right to self defense based on the actions of an incredible minority of gun owners.

You say "But the right wing pro 2nd amendment types seem to have ZERO to contribute to solutions to the gun deaths issue."

So I take it that you, being a left wing type, gives you a total pass on that responsibility?

Wymple, I encourage you to go and attempt to establish gun safety courses in your local educational system.
See what response you get.

The most likely result is you'd get placed on an FBI watchlist...

quote:

The issue is that you cannot punish people for infractions or crimes which they have not yet committed.

Cool! No more seat belts, speed limits or motorcycle helmets!

Speed limits and helmet laws vary by state here Tumbleweed.
The lefty Brooking Institute claim there are over 300 relevant Fed and State gun laws, and into the thousands with local laws.
I could go with raising the age to buy a centerfire semi-auto to 21, even though I doubt it would make a difference.
But, in return I want existing laws enforced.
ATF were the biggest gun runners there was, when Obo was in office. Not a one was fired.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:

quote:

The issue is that you cannot punish people for infractions or crimes which they have not yet committed.

Cool! No more seat belts, speed limits or motorcycle helmets!

Unfortunately the crime is speeding or not wearing your helmet.

There are laws on the books about felons and firearms. Look at some police reports, cops catching a felon with a gun is not uncommon… but prosecution of a gun charge absent a gun violence act seems rather rare.

I don’t see what making something “more illegaler” is going to accomplish if they are downgrading charges regularly and dismissing things at “prosecutorial discretion” regularly.

We do have a system to keep guns and such out of the hands of those who should not have them… but somehow it’s not used. Its failure due to nonuse is seen as a reason to pass more restrictions that would primarily affect the folks who are not a problem.

It also serves to keep the political lobby groups richly employed.

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

It's been tried before.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Paint the arguments any way you like, gun rights supporters are losing Don't let the slew of carry laws & such the last few years fool you. It can all come crashing down overnight unless the narrative changes that is convincing more & more people that guns & gun rights laws are having too much of an uncivil effect on this country. I'm not here to argue against guns, I own them as do most of my kids. But the right wing pro 2nd amendment types seem to have ZERO to contribute to solutions to the gun deaths issue. You blabber on about training, morals, responsibility, parenting, mental illness, etc., but do absolutely nothing. While the right wing can get laws passed for stand your ground, concealed & open carry, etc, they haven't made a single effort anywhere that I know of to get gun safety courses in our educational system, or any such program that might help. Nothing. Get going or win the battles & lose the war.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...d2e026f3b33fbe&ei=18

Mooched from American Hunting Forum, can't let this go un-noticed.

https://www.yellowstonepark.co...guns-in-yellowstone/

Park visitors are able to openly carry legal handguns, rifles, shotguns and other firearms per a federal law approved by Congress and signed by President Barack Obama in February 2010 . Concealed weapons are allowed by state statute

President Obama signed off on it. One attaboy for the president.

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Paint the arguments any way you like, gun rights supporters are losing Don't let the slew of carry laws & such the last few years fool you. It can all come crashing down overnight unless the narrative changes that is convincing more & more people that guns & gun rights laws are having too much of an uncivil effect on this country. I'm not here to argue against guns, I own them as do most of my kids. But the right wing pro 2nd amendment types seem to have ZERO to contribute to solutions to the gun deaths issue. You blabber on about training, morals, responsibility, parenting, mental illness, etc., but do absolutely nothing. While the right wing can get laws passed for stand your ground, concealed & open carry, etc, they haven't made a single effort anywhere that I know of to get gun safety courses in our educational system, or any such program that might help. Nothing. Get going or win the battles & lose the war.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...d2e026f3b33fbe&ei=18

Mooched from American Hunting Forum, can't let this go un-noticed.

https://www.yellowstonepark.co...guns-in-yellowstone/

Park visitors are able to openly carry legal handguns, rifles, shotguns and other firearms per a federal law approved by Congress and signed by President Barack Obama in February 2010 . Concealed weapons are allowed by state statute

President Obama signed off on it. One attaboy for the president.

Could you fire a gun in YNP in self defense from Grizzly Adams and not a grizzly bear?

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

And it has been done with everything else including guns so your point is?

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

And it has been done with everything else including guns so your point is?

You have to register your dog & get him vaccinated. You can't drive without testing, licensing, insurance, etc. You can't become a damn barber unless you go to school & get certified. The GOP wants to make it ever more difficult to vote with restrictive registration rules & limiting polling places. The list is endless.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

And it has been done with everything else including guns so your point is?

You have to register your dog & get him vaccinated. You can't drive without testing, licensing, insurance, etc. You can't become a damn barber unless you go to school & get certified. The GOP wants to make it ever more difficult to vote with restrictive registration rules & limiting polling places. The list is endless.

No shit. The list is endless, my wallet is jam full of permits, preferred customer cards, and assorted crap. Not a lot of money...

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

And it has been done with everything else including guns so your point is?

With regard to the US mass killings are still very much of a problem. Therefore either whatever laws are in place on the safe use of firearms aren’t enforced /don’t work, or the regulatory framework is lacking.

In the last 24 hrs a kid who knocked on the wrong door whilst attempting to collect his younger siblings was shot through the door and a young woman was shot after the car she was in accidentally pulled into the wrong driveway.

The thing is, this time around, we are more and more likely to lose. While we know perfectly well, the call for more gun control is a knee jerk reaction, the absolute refusal of the pro-gun side to acknowledge that some people should not be armed is just the same. The passage of the 1968 GCA should have been a wake up call for pro-gun forces to try and identify problems before they reached the boiling point. Truth is, the mass shooting events were not a "thing" back then. When they began to occur, they should have been recognized as a symptom of a society with a problem. Instead, the left blamed the gun, the right blamed the left, and both sides dug in and avoided any attempt to determine root causes or try to do anything meaningful. I'm kind of glad I'm part of the demographic which might not see the conclusion of the great experiment. Regards, Bill.

Until Soros bought and paid for DA's and teacher unions are eliminated, it's not going to change. We are in a rural area where the laws are enforced and hunter safety is taught in the high school.

The 2A is a right not a privilege. Only a fool gives up their rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The thing is, this time around, we are more and more likely to lose. While we know perfectly well, the call for more gun control is a knee jerk reaction, the absolute refusal of the pro-gun side to acknowledge that some people should not be armed is just the same. The passage of the 1968 GCA should have been a wake up call for pro-gun forces to try and identify problems before they reached the boiling point. Truth is, the mass shooting events were not a "thing" back then. When they began to occur, they should have been recognized as a symptom of a society with a problem. Instead, the left blamed the gun, the right blamed the left, and both sides dug in and avoided any attempt to determine root causes or try to do anything meaningful. I'm kind of glad I'm part of the demographic which might not see the conclusion of the great experiment. Regards, Bill.

The obverse of that is that traditionally (since the 30’s anyhow) there were rules about access to guns that were on the books that still ostensibly are there…

No drug use.

No habitual use of alcohol (addiction)

No felony conviction (now no misdemeanor conviction either for certain charges)

Not be declared incompetent (ie, have a guardian assigned)

No history of mental health issues (committed to care).

The left has been pushing for restoring all rights except gun rights to these individuals. I’m no legal scholar, and LHeym routinely tells me of my lack of understanding of the precedents… he’s right about that.

My issue is that we have our rights… classically until they have been removed through due process of law.

This massive permissiveness with regards to the left is a large part of the problem. Your vote can (collectively) be much more damaging to the country used poorly, so I don’t buy that some rights are “more sacred” than others.

Either we stick with restrictions on rights collectively, or we don’t.

Look at the left’s view of 2 fundamental rights. One is to be not only permitted and require photo ID, but a preliminary background check is to (ideally per them) be done whenever you exercise said right.

The other, no photo ID, criminals should be allowed to, to the point of setting up facilities in prisons, etc.

Self defense (guns) and voting.

The right is no better in they tend to view any restriction on guns differently than voting or things like public assembly.

Our problem is people are schizoid in relation to rights, and the idea of equal application of law is hard to come by.

Also, just because something is a right, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t exercise some personal responsibility regarding it.

If you’re a drunk or a pothead, maybe while you can buy a gun, it would be best not to. You also shouldn’t vote. Both for the same reason… your judgement is questionable.

If you insist otherwise, you are kind of proving the point. But today, you are able to do both.

quote:

No history of mental health issues (committed to care)

Is that the test? You have to have been committed to care in order to be disqualified from owning a gun?

Seems pretty daft as only a tiny percentage of those with mental health issues ever enter residential care.

quote:

quote:
No history of mental health issues (committed to care)

Actually:
adjuducated or committed by legal means

not voluntarily committed

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Do you ban alcohol because few drunks killed people?

No, but you introduce drink driving laws, a drinking age limit and other laws to encourage safe use of alcohol.

And it has been done with everything else including guns so your point is?

With regard to the US mass killings are still very much of a problem. Therefore either whatever laws are in place on the safe use of firearms aren’t enforced /don’t work, or the regulatory framework is lacking.

In the last 24 hrs a kid who knocked on the wrong door whilst attempting to collect his younger siblings was shot through the door and a young woman was shot after the car she was in accidentally pulled into the wrong driveway.

I don't believe the question should be "how", rather it should be "why?"

Why are Americans so quick to violence? Why are Americans so suspicious?

In today's news, two fathers in Florida, With families in each automobile! were involved in a road rage shooting where daughters in both vehicles were shot! There is no possible scenario where either dad/ driver was justified in that situation.

Why? why did either of them let that happen?