Im seeing reports this morning that Ukraine is in line for 50-100 Abrams Tanks.

Has something happened overnight? is there any truth too such rumours?

I haven't seen that but it wouldn't surprise me. I have seen reporting that a big Russian offensive is coming.

I thought they were german sumthin or other, cat name of some sort.

potentially they will end up with german leopards, French tanks, UK challengers and M1s from whats being said today.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
I thought they were german sumthin or other, cat name of some sort.

Leopard.

US Sending 30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. I'm sure the
Russians will appreciate it.

And, so it begins. Let's pray for wisdom.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24...s-ukraine/index.html

Germany allows 2 bataljons of Leopard tanks, that should be 88 in total. Wouldn't suprise me if there was a deal between Germany (and EU) and US, that if we do it, then you do it/if you do it we do it. Lots of them will get stuck in the thaw, and it will probaly thaw shortly after enough crew is trained and tanks are at the front.

World War III is ongoing!

And no, I d like it one little bit.

I would rather they sit down and sorted out, instead of adding fuel to the fishes!

Yesterday that stupid idiot Boris was in the Ukraine for his photo op!

The Ukrainians are suffering and that idiot ruling them is enjoying the limelight!

He has even gotten his wife into the act!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
US Sending 30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. I'm sure the
Russians will appreciate it.

And, so it begins. Let's pray for wisdom.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24...s-ukraine/index.html

I don't understand why thy would send HIGH MAINTENANCE vehicles. In fact I can't quite understand why they even produced them that way. It's like issuing rifles that need to be cleaned very 2 shots.

All modern weapons are high maintenance.

The Abrams tank requires a huge logistical tail… and you can guess who will be paying for it for Ukraine.

I suspect Ukraine is starting to run out of bodies. That means they need more advanced weaponry to get the required force needed to stop Russia.

Frankly, they can’t win if the Russian populace fully supports the war. Russia is bigger in every way.

Putin is most likely correct that if NATO wasn’t involved, this would be over already.

Of course, it should also be over if Russia leaves, but Zelensky has been making demands that indicate it’s not going to be that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
World War III is ongoing!

And no, I d like it one little bit.

I would rather they sit down and sorted out, instead of adding fuel to the fishes!

Yesterday that stupid idiot Boris was in the Ukraine for his photo op!

The Ukrainians are suffering and that idiot ruling them is enjoying the limelight!

He has even gotten his wife into the act!

He's been very effective in obtaining western weapons for his forces defending his country...and good for him. Russia thought it could roll over the who country in a few weeks, thanks to Zelensky they haven't.

For some weird reason you seem to think that the suffering of Ukrainians is Zelensky's fault rather than Putin's. The mind boggles, to use one of your own favourite phrases.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
All modern weapons are high maintenance.

The Abrams tank requires a huge logistical tail… and you can guess who will be paying for it for Ukraine.

I suspect Ukraine is starting to run out of bodies. That means they need more advanced weaponry to get the required force needed to stop Russia.

Frankly, they can’t win if the Russian populace fully supports the war. Russia is bigger in every way.

Putin is most likely correct that if NATO wasn’t involved, this would be over already.

Of course, it should also be over if Russia leaves, but Zelensky has been making demands that indicate it’s not going to be that simple.

Of course it might already be over if NATO and the west weren't involved. Because Russia would have marched in and would now have its boot on Ukraine's neck.

I don't see how NATO or the west can in any way be criticised for helping a sovereign nation defend itself.

I guess Zelensky should have just rolled out the welcome mat for Putin’s invaders and told them to take whatever they want…..Just like Kuwait welcomed Saddam. Oh wait, Kuwait and SA begged us to defend them. Pesky facts, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
And, so it begins. Let's pray for wisdom.

I am afraid this is correct.

No, but I don’t like his trying to insist that Russia pay indemnities and suffer war crimes trials.

Get them out would be my goal. The rest makes a settlement that much less likely.

What happens to these first line tanks when the war is over?

Ukraine’s history is sell them to whoever will pay for them… so China and Russia have copies to reverse engineer/beat.

I agree that supporting Ukraine is good, but we should be ensuring our help is used to fight, not to pad someone’s pocket.

I get why Ukraine wants our latest weapons. If I were them, I would also.

I don’t necessarily think that the tanks will get Russia to stop, nor that it is necessarily in our best interests to give first line tanks to them.

I do think that Russia will lose this, and leave because I don’t think the average Russian citizen sees this as an existential crisis despite what Putin claims.

"What happens to these...tanks when the war is over?"

Some will be lost in battle. Some will be captured and will, in fact, be relocated to Russia for study and analysis. The only real intel obtainable will be in the areas of metallurgy and methods of construction. Stuff the Russians and Chinese already know.

I would assume the tanks that are being sent will not be equipped with any top-shelf electronic / computer / weapons systems. They will most likely be Plane-Jane models without all the super bells and whistles. Kind of like the jets we sell world-wide. They lack the avionics and computer systems that make them comparable to our own inventory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5aXIQwiyHo

Retired general on what will happen after Ukraine gets tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-CUeqjNZrk

Biden sending 31 tanks to aid Ukraine in war

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
All modern weapons are high maintenance.

The Abrams tank requires a huge logistical tail… and you can guess who will be paying for it for Ukraine.

I suspect Ukraine is starting to run out of bodies. That means they need more advanced weaponry to get the required force needed to stop Russia.

Frankly, they can’t win if the Russian populace fully supports the war. Russia is bigger in every way.

Putin is most likely correct that if NATO wasn’t involved, this would be over already.

Of course, it should also be over if Russia leaves, but Zelensky has been making demands that indicate it’s not going to be that simple.

I say fuck the Russians and we should give the Ukrainians everything they need to fight as long as they are willing to do so. Vlad needs to understand there will be a price to pay when he unilaterally decides to invade a sovereign country and claim it as his own. Bullshit.

What if he does understand and does it anyway? In such case, what price is too much?

OTOH, maybe he is not capable of understanding reality that way. He's got alt-realityitus.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
All modern weapons are high maintenance.

The Abrams tank requires a huge logistical tail… and you can guess who will be paying for it for Ukraine.

I suspect Ukraine is starting to run out of bodies. That means they need more advanced weaponry to get the required force needed to stop Russia.

Frankly, they can’t win if the Russian populace fully supports the war. Russia is bigger in every way.

Putin is most likely correct that if NATO wasn’t involved, this would be over already.

Of course, it should also be over if Russia leaves, but Zelensky has been making demands that indicate it’s not going to be that simple.

Not exactly T 34s mechanically either.

Grizz

Weaponry is constantly evolving. what is new today is about obsolete in 5 yrs.
USA is probably providing tanks a few generation back. Probably nothing they want in current inventory anyway.
The javelin anti tank rockets are 20 yrs old. Probably giving away old ordinance likely to fail due to age.
A lot of stuff is just getting out old or worn out inventory. Give it away instead of the cost in de commissioning.
New generations forth coming.
Funding the war machine..

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
All modern weapons are high maintenance.

The Abrams tank requires a huge logistical tail… and you can guess who will be paying for it for Ukraine.

I suspect Ukraine is starting to run out of bodies. That means they need more advanced weaponry to get the required force needed to stop Russia.

Frankly, they can’t win if the Russian populace fully supports the war. Russia is bigger in every way.

Putin is most likely correct that if NATO wasn’t involved, this would be over already.

Of course, it should also be over if Russia leaves, but Zelensky has been making demands that indicate it’s not going to be that simple.

I understand the maintenance thing, but it seems like the Abrams need more than normal. If they cant make it back to a safe repair area are we going to send a tow truck to bring them back or a repair crew to the front lines?

they do have tank tow trucks.

the prez said they are sending spare parts and pieces and should have the troops trained to use them by spring.
these must be the older Abrams models since they run on jet fuel and jet fuel substitutes.

sounds like they are getting some patriot systems, armored personnel carriers, and other missile systems from other countries too.

this is the biggest pile of armament going over yet.
kind of just leaves jet planes and some navy junk to go.

These are the Abrams M1 A1, not the M1 A2 if I’m not mistaken. Either way, both it and the Leopard 2 are a match for Russian T10 Armata… The T 82 is outclassed.

The AGT1500 will run on anything flammable. It’s a hell of a machine. I was an M1A1 crewman in the Army. If I were a younger man, I would volunteer to crew on one for Ukraine. I was damned good at it.

It will be interesting to see how western MBT’s perform, even with hurriedly trained Ukrainian crews, against Russian kit.

I believe the Challenger is the only modern western tank not to have suffered a combat loss, the only one to actually be destroyed was shot by another Challenger 2.

“A Challenger 2 received 14 RPG-7 hits at close range with a MILAN anti-tank missile damaging the reconnaissance system. The crew remained safe after the attack, and the tank was quickly repaired with a tracking system before returning to service.”

https://military-wiki.com/chal...-abrams-and-leopard/

I hope they all keep their crews safe.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

I don't see how NATO or the west can in any way be criticised for helping a sovereign nation defend itself.

Tradition. The USA supplied both side in World War I, right up until declaration of war.
Both sides interdicted US shipping in the Atlantic.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
It will be interesting to see how western MBT’s perform, even with hurriedly trained Ukrainian crews, against Russian kit.

I believe the Challenger is the only modern western tank not to have suffered a combat loss, the only one to actually be destroyed was shot by another Challenger 2.

“A Challenger 2 received 14 RPG-7 hits at close range with a MILAN anti-tank missile damaging the reconnaissance system. The crew remained safe after the attack, and the tank was quickly repaired with a tracking system before returning to service.”

https://military-wiki.com/chal...-abrams-and-leopard/

I hope they all keep their crews safe.

It becomes a numbers game. How many Abrams were in theater versus how many Challengers?? Who knows but I’m glad they both kicked the shit out of the Republican Guard tank divisions.