quote:

At the same time, and most important of all, Congress should increase resources that go to mental health services because mental health is clearly and directly related to our escalating levels of gun violence. Mass shootings, in particular, often appear associated with psychological maladies. This is not to excuse the perpetrators. Rather, it is a call to marshal the resources at our disposal to stop senseless killings before they occur.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
We could also enforce our existing laws and actually incarcerate criminals....

We could put hard labor back in our prison systems.....

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
We could also enforce our existing laws and actually incarcerate criminals....

We could put hard labor back in our prison systems.....

. . . you mean close the barn door after the horse is already out? Capital punishment for murder does not deter murder.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Can you explain how someone who will take their own life will be deterred by the prospect of hard labor in prison? Most of these shooters do not plan on living out the next 24 hours, prison is not something they consider.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Can you explain how someone who will take their own life will be deterred by the prospect of hard labor in prison? Most of these shooters do not plan on living out the next 24 hours, prison is not something they consider.

Some of what you say is somewhat true.

They basically are committing suicide and getting an emotional high at the same time by fantasizing about martyrdom (not the islamic thing but a glorified death that they feels rights injustice in their sick minds).

If they could see a humiliating punishment in death by public execution…it would deter. Same for drug dealers and child molesters.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Can you explain how someone who will take their own life will be deterred by the prospect of hard labor in prison? Most of these shooters do not plan on living out the next 24 hours, prison is not something they consider.

Some of what you say is somewhat true.

They basically are committing suicide and getting an emotional high at the same time by fantasizing about martyrdom (not the islamic thing but a glorified death that they feels rights injustice in their sick minds).

If they could see a humiliating punishment in death by public execution…it would deter. Same for drug dealers and child molesters.

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Gun prohibitive laws are just classic “ Must do something “ for governments to disarm law abiding citizens…nothing more and nothing less

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Gun prohibitive laws are just classic “ Must do something “ for governments to disarm law abiding citizens…nothing more and nothing less

The left is selling simplistic thinking.

Unaligned artificial intelligence might come up with answers like this for "...how to prevent human warfare...".

Easy. Kill off all the humans, and there will be no more human warfare. Oh.

How to prevent gun violence? Melt the guns, no more GUN violence, back to ball bats and big fellows beating smaller ones.

Samuel Colt made men equal...for better or worse...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
We could also enforce our existing laws and actually incarcerate criminals....

We could put hard labor back in our prison systems.....

. . . you mean close the barn door after the horse is already out? Capital punishment for murder does not deter murder.

There is ZERO data to support that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Gun prohibitive laws are just classic “ Must do something “ for governments to disarm law abiding citizens…nothing more and nothing less

The left is selling simplistic thinking.

Unaligned artificial intelligence might come up with answers like this for "...how to prevent human warfare...".

Easy. Kill off all the humans, and there will be no more human warfare. Oh.

How to prevent gun violence? Melt the guns, no more GUN violence, back to ball bats and big fellows beating smaller ones.

Samuel Colt made men equal...for better or worse...

You can't argue with the fact that the countries that don't make guns available to their citizens don't have gun massacres.

I always wonder too about the argument that the purpose of the 2A is to protect ourselves from the government. How have all these other folks in all these other countries managed to survive the government tyranny that requires the right to own magazine-fed semi-automatic rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . seem like common sense propositions to me. I would be inclined to go farther, e.g., raising the age to purchase firearms to 21, red=flag restrictions. Or do we just do nothing and hope for a different result . . . all the while understanding that nothing will change and the mass shootings will continue.

James Baker: Gun laws Republicans can support

James Baker: Gun laws that Republicans can support (Opinion)
Bipartisan agreement is possible. Here's where.

As someone who learned to hunt wild game at my father’s elbow, and who continues to prowl after wild turkeys, quail and elk at the age of 93, two things about guns are crystal clear to me. First, I maintain strong passions for firearms and the outdoors and, just as importantly, a healthy respect for both. But second, in the face of a seemingly daily barrage of mass shootings like the recent one in Allen, Texas, it is evident our country is suffering a tragic epidemic of gun violence that has veered out of control.

The numbers are overwhelming. At a time when modern medicine is finding ways to reduce cancer, heart disease and other causes of death, our nation is experiencing an upward spiral in firearm fatalities. Since 2000, such deaths have increased by 55 percent to 44,310 last year. The toll of American civilians who have suffered gun-related deaths during the past 50 years is more than the 1.35 million U.S. soldiers who died during all our wars combined.

50 years with a population of over 300 million vs wars when the largest casualty event was in 1863. Our population was 18.5 million. We lost a huge percentage more people then.

When all firearms-related deaths are combined (accidental, suicide and homicide), they become one of the nation’s 15 biggest killers. Sadly, the most vulnerable among us are the biggest victims. In 2021, firearms were the leading cause of death for U.S. children and teens, accounting for nearly 19 percent of deaths of those 18 or younger.

Banning firearms is not likely to reduce suicide deaths.

With the carnage seemingly out of control, it is little wonder a recent Gallup poll indicates Americans’ dissatisfaction with U.S. gun laws has risen to 63 percent, the highest since Gallup began tracking national gun policies in 2001. Although demand for change comes largely from Democrats and independents, 44 percent of Republicans are dissatisfied with gun laws as well. Absent new laws, that public dissatisfaction will only increase as the death toll mounts.

How about a more reasoned discussion of the causality than just “guns”?

Such public sentiment is one reason Congress passed a bipartisan bill last summer — the first major federal gun safety legislation since the assault weapons ban of 1994, a law that expired after 10 years. Last year, Republicans and Democrats hammered out the new legislation in the aftermath of mass shootings in a Buffalo, New York supermarket and an elementary school in Uvalde. The law established background checks for gun purchasers younger than 21, further criminalized arms trafficking and provided millions of dollars for states to implement red flag laws and other crisis intervention programs.

Really? I thought background checks were already mandated. What they passed was what, exactly? More like trying to improve the information in the system.

Though the new law did not go far enough to reduce gun violence, it was a promising first step towards the development of further legislation. Additional steps should be considered that might be able to attract bipartisan support, including:

· A ban on ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds except for military or police use. Similar bans have been in place since 1935, when federal law began restricting waterfowl hunters to three shells in a shotgun.

Two points…

it was tried and failed.

It is impossible to do at this point. Too many out there and magazines are pretty simple to make.

· A ban on armor-piercing bullets, the kind that are opposed by police chiefs around the country.

With the proliferation of body armor, this is going to adversely affect self defense, and secondly, any decent hunting rifle has more penetration than any handgun bullet. It’s impossible to make a reasonable law here.

· A longer waiting period — or a “cooling off period” — for the purchase of a handgun.

As others said, handgun delays wouldn’t affect much. Most mass casualty events were planned well in advance.

· Further strengthening background checks for all gun purchasers, and not just those younger than 21.

At the same time, and most important of all, Congress should increase resources that go to mental health services because mental health is clearly and directly related to our escalating levels of gun violence. Mass shootings, in particular, often appear associated with psychological maladies. This is not to excuse the perpetrators. Rather, it is a call to marshal the resources at our disposal to stop senseless killings before they occur.

Any approach, of course, will demand bipartisan support. This is not only important because our current system requires a 60-vote majority in the Senate. But also because, absent wide support, any laws passed now might well be rescinded once the partisan balance of power inevitably shifts.

Getting to a bipartisan deal will not be easy, particularly under the dysfunctional political climate in our country. A sensible middle ground will be needed to thread the difficult partisan needle.

I worked for three wise U.S. presidents — George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford. All were men with great respect for the freedom provided by the Second Amendment. They understood that our Constitution is a precious safeguard for those worried that “they’re going to take our guns away.” But they also understood that our nation has had gun laws throughout its history. And all favored reasonable restrictions.

Some will say that Americans may just have to get used to the gun violence that plagues our nation. There are too many guns in this country, they will say, to put the genie back in the bottle. We should reject such pessimism.

Can we get rid of gun violence in one fell legislative swoop? Of course not. But to help stem the rising tide of gun violence, we can and should take practical, pragmatic steps — both those directly related to firearms and those related to mental health.

James A. Baker, III, was the nation’s 61st Secretary of State and 67th Secretary of the Treasury.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

At the same time, and most important of all, Congress should increase resources that go to mental health services because mental health is clearly and directly related to our escalating levels of gun violence. Mass shootings, in particular, often appear associated with psychological maladies. This is not to excuse the perpetrators. Rather, it is a call to marshal the resources at our disposal to stop senseless killings before they occur.

I could go for this part....bit that's about it.

We could also enforce our existing laws and actually incarcerate criminals....

We could put hard labor back in our prison systems.....

quote:

A ban on ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds except for military or police use.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Gun prohibitive laws are just classic “ Must do something “ for governments to disarm law abiding citizens…nothing more and nothing less

The left is selling simplistic thinking.

Unaligned artificial intelligence might come up with answers like this for "...how to prevent human warfare...".

Easy. Kill off all the humans, and there will be no more human warfare. Oh.

How to prevent gun violence? Melt the guns, no more GUN violence, back to ball bats and big fellows beating smaller ones.

Samuel Colt made men equal...for better or worse...

You can't argue with the fact that the countries that don't make guns available to their citizens don't have gun massacres.

I always wonder too about the argument that the purpose of the 2A is to protect ourselves from the government. How have all these other folks in all these other countries managed to survive the government tyranny that requires the right to own magazine-fed semi-automatic rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
For those that reject ideas like those proposed by Baker, what is your solution to the recurring mass shooting issue? Pray for better nuclear families and bury more victims until those prayers are answered? Reform our educational system and bury more victims until the decades pass for those efforts to come to fruition? Train up our elementary school children to be battlefield medics to try and save some of their classmates and bury the rest? What exactly do we do in the interim, pretend it is all going to get better because we want it to? Let’s hear your suggestions for the timely resolution of what is clearly a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . most of these mass shooters are shot and killed in the police response. Most of those that survive are mentally ill and end up in prison or institutions. The risk of being shot or imprisoned does not deter these mass shooters. The shooters are being punished. People kill, not guns. Punish criminals, not law abiding citizens. Those are wonderful simplistic bromides, but how do they prevent or deter mass shootings? Let’s hear solutions, not trite adages.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Oh and lets us not forget your law enforcements agencies

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . most of these mass shooters are shot and killed in the police response. Most of those that survive are mentally ill and end up in prison or institutions. The risk of being shot or imprisoned does not deter these mass shooters. The shooters are being punished. People kill, not guns. Punish criminals, not law abiding citizens. Those are wonderful simplistic bromides, but how do they prevent or deter mass shootings? Let’s hear solutions, not trite adages.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
For those that reject ideas like those proposed by Baker, what is your solution to the recurring mass shooting issue? Pray for better nuclear families and bury more victims until those prayers are answered? Reform our educational system and bury more victims until the decades pass for those efforts to come to fruition? Train up our elementary school children to be battlefield medics to try and save some of their classmates and bury the rest? What exactly do we do in the interim, pretend it is all going to get better because we want it to? Let’s hear your suggestions for the timely resolution of what is clearly a problem.

quote:

A ban on ammunition magazines holding more than ten rounds except for military or police use. Similar bans have been in place since 1935, when federal law began restricting waterfowl hunters to three shells in a shotgun.

· A ban on armor-piercing bullets, the kind that are opposed by police chiefs around the country.

· A longer waiting period — or a “cooling off period” — for the purchase of a handgun.

· Further strengthening background checks for all gun purchasers, and not just those younger than 21.

At the same time, and most important of all, Congress should increase resources that go to mental health services because mental health is clearly and directly related to our escalating levels of gun violence. Mass shootings, in particular, often appear associated with psychological maladies. This is not to excuse the perpetrators. Rather, it is a call to marshal the resources at our disposal to stop senseless killings before they occur.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
I think the change in our gun culture is the last 20 years is sad, the embrace of all the tactical/military arms have zero to do with my interests as well as being a terrible look for the non shooting public to see. I'm almost 53, have been a hunter and shooter since I was old enough to walk and have never fired a .223 or AR in my life, nor do I have any desire to. If you care to notice, almost every single one of these shooters chooses a semi-auto of some type, usually an AR but sometimes a handgun. Increased scrutiny for the purchase of these items seems logical. Have you ever looked at the statistics on crime committed with class 3 items? Almost zero due to the difficulty of obtaining them, the level of vetting is far higher than that for purchasing a non class 3 firearm. Maybe we should look at everyone buying semi autos/AR type weapons a bit closer than those buying sporting arms. When was the last time you read about a bolt gun being used in a mass shooting? The Texas tower shooter in the 60's? There is a connection between these shootings and the guns they choose.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
For those that reject ideas like those proposed by Baker, what is your solution to the recurring mass shooting issue? Pray for better nuclear families and bury more victims until those prayers are answered? Reform our educational system and bury more victims until the decades pass for those efforts to come to fruition? Train up our elementary school children to be battlefield medics to try and save some of their classmates and bury the rest? What exactly do we do in the interim, pretend it is all going to get better because we want it to? Let’s hear your suggestions for the timely resolution of what is clearly a problem.

For schools…they must hardened by:
1) limited entry access
2) surveillance
3) armed guard presence at all times

For places like Allen…the mental illness aspect is the only hope. I agree with Baker in that paragraph.

The other things he proposed will do NOTHING to help with the problem and only erode freedoms.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
The only thing that makes any sense is more scrutiny of the purchaser of the weapon at the time the weapon is purchased. I'm all for more funding for mental health treatment but that paints with such a broad brush that it means virtually nothing in the context of preventing gun massacres.