quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
America, at this moment, is forcing the fusion of Russia and China. Iran, NK, most of the indo pacific and most of the continent of Africa will ally with the above.

WWIII is in the kindling stage and the twigs are beginning to smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

Sure, Doc Lane for one.

Gaetz, Green, Boebert, Cruz

Shall I go on?

China and Russia have clearly stated that they plan on upending the post WWII world order for one more favorable to their world view. The US is not forcing China to side with Russia, China made that decision all by themselves.

If you allow Russia to set precedence that Nuclear armed States do not need to follow the rules then all bets are off.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

Sure, Doc Lane for one.

Gaetz, Green, Boebert, Cruz

Shall I go on?

China and Russia have clearly stated that they plan on upending the post WWII world order for one more favorable to their world view. The US is not forcing China to side with Russia, China made that decision all by themselves.

If you allow Russia to set precedence that Nuclear armed States do not need to follow the rules then all bets are off.

See that is the fallacy with your logic — actually logic is a misnomer as there isn’t any.

None of the above are Russian sympathizers. They all are America First advocators.

You cannot see the forest for the trees.

Russia and China NEVER intended to let post-WWII era live — NEVER. They both have patience. We have been for a while making their opportunity appear.

We are not forcing Xi to Russia…we are aiding in bringing Russia to heel for Xi. Xi is smiling.

China is Queen…Russia is the pawn. Play Chess…not checkers.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

Sure, Doc Lane for one.

Gaetz, Green, Boebert, Cruz

Shall I go on?

China and Russia have clearly stated that they plan on upending the post WWII world order for one more favorable to their world view. The US is not forcing China to side with Russia, China made that decision all by themselves.

If you allow Russia to set precedence that Nuclear armed States do not need to follow the rules then all bets are off.

See that is the fallacy with your logic — actually logic is a misnomer as there isn’t any.

None of the above are Russian sympathizers. They all are America First advocators.

You cannot see the forest for the trees.

Russia and China NEVER intended to let post-WWII era live — NEVER. They both have patience. We have been for a while making their opportunity appear.

We are not forcing Xi to Russia…we are aiding in bringing Russia to heel for Xi. Xi is smiling.

China is Queen…Russia is the pawn. Play Chess…not checkers.

What a bunch of hubris.

So tell me the long game these MAGA fools are playing? How exactly do they see world order when Russia, China, NK etc. are not bound by rules?

quote:

Originally posted by Kanec:
Everyone sees it differently, EU does, US does, Russia does
Everyone can always justify actions in their own sphere and as it should be
In US it seems , no politicians can or could have any relationship with Russia per say without being accused of anything and everything and being hit by those accusations in election cycle
In EU it is getting that way as well so it will be interesting to see what the future brings
Scariest part is Russia China pact but that is also result of western countries constantly poking fingers into a Russia in the name of western values
We don’t like it when others do it to us…

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
This conversation, ( like most,) quickly went over my head, but I would add that I've never thought either Doc or myself are any kind of Putin apologist or supporter.
I very well remember growing up in the 80s and the consideration of the USSR. I barely remember the boycott of the 1980 Olympics, but do remember the coverage of Brezhnev, Andropov and Chernenko. They all were certainly considered a force.

I have heard nothing for years now that would lead me to believe that Russia is anything more than a regional threat and the war in Ukraine I believe has cemented my opinion. Russia seems little more than a gang of drunk monkeys. Certainly the nukes are a concern, but I don't think I've seen anything out of Russia that resembles USSR capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
This conversation, ( like most,) quickly went over my head, but I would add that I've never thought either Doc or myself are any kind of Putin apologist or supporter.
I very well remember growing up in the 80s and the consideration of the USSR. I barely remember the boycott of the 1980 Olympics, but do remember the coverage of Brezhnev, Andropov and Chernenko. They all were certainly considered a force.

I have heard nothing for years now that would lead me to believe that Russia is anything more than a regional threat and the war in Ukraine I believe has cemented my opinion. Russia seems little more than a gang of drunk monkeys. Certainly the nukes are a concern, but I don't think I've seen anything out of Russia that resembles USSR capacity.

When you listen to the left wing media exclusively, you’d have to come to the conclusion that all conservatives are Russian agents. Propaganda at its finest, yet so many can’t discern fantasy from reality. Remember, they also believe that mankind will somehow change the earths climate, back to someplace it was before.

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:
Hook, line, sinker…

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
America, at this moment, is forcing the fusion of Russia and China. Iran, NK, most of the indo pacific and most of the continent of Africa will ally with the above.

WWIII is in the kindling stage and the twigs are beginning to smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I know of no Russian sympathizers with standing within the Republican Party.

Can you point out some?

Before you state Trump…as MAGA notes, he puts America first.

Forcing the fusion of Russia and China is not in the best interest of the world or America.

It is happening and Xi is not curtailed by American aid to Ukraine. Ukraine is bringing Putin to heel to Xi — an outcome to Xi’s very delight.

Putin is a genius. Sound familiar??

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t consider Cruz, Boebert, Green, et al very deep thinkers.

Maybe a bit deeper than Biden, but that’s really damning with faint praise.

In order to stand up to China we do desperately need allies.

Too bad that the EU has for the most part not been a good partner that way. Sure, some members have been helpful, but the whole is much more isolationistic than the US. If it’s not a European problem, the EU refuses to deal with it.

How long has the US been trying to get their NATO allies to actually live up to their agreements? And now they find they can’t help Ukraine without the US, even though the EU is collectively relatively close to the US size wise… certainly big enough to handle Russia…

We are bailing Europe out again.

My fear is that based on past experiences, the EU will not come to the table effectively if we need their help with China. Look at the GWT. Sure, individual nations sent some help, but the effort was extremely predominantly the US. The UK has been steadfast in being willing to help, but their help was very limited because they don’t have much, if any, surplus capability from their current needs. Ditto Canada. France did send some, but no where near all they could have. Poland did an outsized effort… but the rest of the NATO nations? Germany?

This being the world’s policeman is hurting us economically. We are spending way more on defense to carry our weak sister allies.

I could sympathize if it was they could help but felt it was the wrong war, but as Ukraine is showing, it wasn’t unwillingness… it is inability. And they still want to play socialism at home games even while Putin is a lead threat to them- certainly more than he is to the US. How much do you think they will come to the table when it’s China that’s a bigger threat to us than NATO/the EU?

I know we have some EU contributors here… where is my error?

We learned through the world wars and since then that isolationism doesn’t work (all our failed wars involved a lack of help from allied countries…).

As to Russia and its desire for an authoritarian government, I’m not so sure it’s desire more than a deep set experience that if you stick your head up, it goes badly for you. The Yeltsin years showed a promise of improvement, and it was lost by economic mismanagement and a lack of experience with peaceful regime change. I know way too many emigres from Russia to think that it’s a genetic thing… and as the Fascist and Communist governments in Europe showed, it’s too easy to slip up even for nations with a democratic heritage.

My recollection of my thinking when I was young and thinking of military service was I disliked the authoritarianism of communism, not a dislike of Russia per se. I saw the red Chinese as a bigger threat than the USSR mainly due to Russia starting to show some concern for its human capital (their military tactics were shifting from mass wave assault to war of maneuver) which is not China.

I still dislike the idea of communism and overtly socialistic systems, as I see them as inherently authoritarian. Just like the Nazis, if a bit less stupidly aggressive.

quote:

On 8 June 2006, the Cabinet of Japan endorsed a bill elevating the Defense Agency (防衛庁) under the Cabinet Office to full-fledged cabinet-level Ministry of Defense (防衛省). This was passed by the National Diet in December 2006 and has been enforced since 9 January 2007.[35]

Section 2 of Article 3 of the Self Defense Forces Act was revised on 9 January 2007. JSDF activities abroad were elevated from "miscellaneous regulations" to "basic duties." This fundamentally changed the nature of the JSDF because its activities were no longer solely defensive. JMSDF ships can be dispatched worldwide such as in activities against pirates. The JSDF's first postwar overseas base was established in Djibouti (July 2010).[32] On 18 September 2015, the National Diet enacted the 2015 Japanese military legislation, a series of laws that allow Japan's Self-Defense Forces to defend allies in combat. The JSDF may provide material support to allies engaged in combat overseas. The new law also allows JSDF troops to defend weapons platforms belonging to Japan's allies if doing so would somehow contribute to Japan's defense. The justification being that not defending or coming to the aid of an ally under attack weakens an alliances and endangers Japan. These were Japan's broadest changes to its defense laws since World War II.[36] The JSDF Act was amended in 2015 to make it illegal for JSDF personnel/staff to participate in collective insubordination or to command forces without authority or in violation of orders, which was stated to be the reason Japan was involved in China in World War II.[37] A Credit Suisse survey published in 2015 ranked Japan as the world's fourth most-powerful military behind Russia, China, and United States. [38] Since March 2016, Japan's Legislation for Peace and Security enables seamless responses of the JSDF to any situation to protect the lives and livelihood of Japanese citizens. It also increases proactive contributions to peace and security in the world and deepens cooperation with partners. This enhanced the Japan-US alliance as global partners to promote peace and security in the region and the international community.[39]

Japan activated the Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade, its first marine unit since World War II, on 7 April 2018. It is trained to counter invaders from occupying Japanese islands.[40] The Ministry of Defense said that beginning 1 October 2018, the maximum age for enlisted personnel and non-commissioned officer applicants would be raised from 26 to 32 to secure "a stable supply of Self-Defense Forces [military] personnel amid a declining pool of recruits due to the recently declining birth rate."[2] In March 2019, the Ministry of Defense intended to establish its first regional cyber protection unit in the Western Army of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force (JGSDF) to safeguard defense communications from cyber attacks, such as for personnel deployed on remote islands with no established secure lines.[41] The Ministry of Defense has been developing supersonic glide bombs to strengthen the defense of Japan's remote islands, including the Senkaku Islands. The anti-surface strike capability will be used to help the Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade’s landing and recapture operations of remote islands.[42]

quote:

China is a country set up for defence not offence.

quote:

US/ japan/ philippines/taiwan dont allow them too.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
That is an insane assessment of the situation. America is far stronger with our allies than standing alone.

I don’t disagree but…
…America will always have Europe/NATO as an ally as they need us more than we need them. Let them take care of Russia for now.

Russia is a threat,

Russia is not really a threat. How long do you think it would have taken the US to roll over Ukraine? They are a local menace and Western Europe needs to control them with.

as is China, NK, iran etc.

China is the threat.

This has to do with much more than manufacturing though I agree we should bring it back.

Yeah, energy.

You avoided my question, what does world order look like when precedent is set that nuclear powers are not confronted for aggression?

They should be opposed…by Western Europe with us behind them.

Europe is not able to stand up to Russia alone.

This Ukraine conflict should prove that they are. Of course with us as backup. But THEY need to foot the bill and send the equipment and personnel.

The cost of bankrolling Ukraine is tiny compared to the cost of letting our adversaries reset the rules of engagement.

We’ll see when China starts backing them with supplies and support—indebting Russia to Xi. This will set the new world order.

Russia is a wealth of natural resources…just what Xi needs to complete his goals.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
That is an insane assessment of the situation. America is far stronger with our allies than standing alone.

I don’t disagree but…
…America will always have Europe/NATO as an ally as they need us more than we need them. Let them take care of Russia for now.

Europe is not strong enough to stop Russia. Pushing problems off on others as opposed to addressing them yourself has not been the American way, nor should it be.

Russia is a threat,

Russia is not really a threat. How long do you think it would have taken the US to roll over Ukraine? They are a local menace and Western Europe needs to control them with.

except Europe is not able to control them. They need to be stopped, for our own good.

as is China, NK, iran etc.

China is the threat. Any Nuclear armed state is a threat, that is why Israel is so worked up about Iran getting the technology.

This has to do with much more than manufacturing though I agree we should bring it back.

Yeah, energy. and food security, respecting other nations borders etc. Far more than energy or manufacturing.

You avoided my question, what does world order look like when precedent is set that nuclear powers are not confronted for aggression?

They should be opposed…by Western Europe with us behind them. We are their allies, if we are not there to help them, why should they be there for us? America Alone is piss poor foreign policy.

Europe is not able to stand up to Russia alone.

This Ukraine conflict should prove that they are. Of course with us as backup. But THEY need to foot the bill and send the equipment and personnel. Bullshit but certainly a Tucker Carlson talking point.

The cost of bankrolling Ukraine is tiny compared to the cost of letting our adversaries reset the rules of engagement.

We’ll see when China starts backing them with supplies and support—indebting Russia to Xi. This will set the new world order.

Russia is a wealth of natural resources…just what Xi needs to complete his goals.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Food: America has ample ability to feed itself. Democrat policy of hyepr regulation of commercial farming is a problem though. While I am not necessarily a Tyson fan…I listen yesterday to an interview with them on all the new regulations this administration is trying to heap on them further increasing inflation in food costs.

Fertilizer: directly tied to energy production

Energy: it is decreasing in price as American production is increasing. I have had 2 new wells drilled on me in the last 6 months just coming on-line into production. A smart USA would this local production stable.

Security: Come with me to South Texas and I will show you we have NO security.

Russia: Western Europe CAN control today’s Russia…easily…they just have to muster the will. But why would they??? We are eager fling money at them.

Tax cuts: until we start working off a realistic budget…I begrudge the US Gvt of every red-cent they get of mine…and I give them PLENTY.

China: the real threat. A strong Chinese dependency by Russia is bad. I predict you see Xi starting to provide enough armament to Russia to go toe-to-toe with what we send Ukraine…all the while making its move on Taiwan…opening that corridor Shanks says they lack.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Food: America has ample ability to feed itself. Democrat policy of hyepr regulation of commercial farming is a problem though. While I am not necessarily a Tyson fan…I listen yesterday to an interview with them on all the new regulations this administration is trying to heap on them further increasing inflation in food costs.

Fertilizer: directly tied to energy production

Energy: it is decreasing in price as American production is increasing. I have had 2 new wells drilled on me in the last 6 months just coming on-line into production. A smart USA would this local production stable.

Security: Come with me to South Texas and I will show you we have NO security.

Russia: Western Europe CAN control today’s Russia…easily…they just have to muster the will. But why would they??? We are eager fling money at them.

Tax cuts: until we start working off a realistic budget…I begrudge the US Gvt of every red-cent they get of mine…and I give them PLENTY.

China: the real threat. A strong Chinese dependency by Russia is bad. I predict you see Xi starting to provide enough armament to Russia to go toe-to-toe with what we send Ukraine…all the while making its move on Taiwan…opening that corridor Shanks says they lack.

Maybe you have not noticed, we live in a global market and those in business sell to the highest paying buyer.

However, the USA could keep ours stable with local production and economic incentives…as we should.

We grow plenty of food but rely on Russia and Ukraine for fertilizer.

Mistake and we shouldn’t and don’t have to. Just like we should bring back our other manufacturing.

The price of fertilizer skyrocketed since the war, driving up food costs.

Well aware…I have farm and ranch holdings.

Ukraine produces a huge portion of the worlds grain supply, if that decreases then prices for grain rise worldwide. We do not live in a box.

But we can and should take care of America First.

So it was great that our allies followed us into both Iraq and Afghanistan, but when they need help they are on their own. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

We should be BEHIND them here. Allies covering their back. They should be the tip-of-the-spear…both from supply and finnancial sides.

Taxes: The problem is that you begrudge every cent you give the Government. I do not enjoy writing the checks I send them but I benefit from the services my taxes pay for, roads, police, military etc. I pay my way and do not cry about it, unlike some others who proclaim to be patriots.

When they become responsible…I will not begrudge.

China, Russia, NK, Iran....plenty of threats if you open your eyes. We are far stronger standing with our allies, they have been there for us, we should be there in thier time of need.

They hang around us because they have no where else to hang. They have never been that much help to us. And yes…we should be right behind Western Europe in this matter…backing THEIR fight.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
I would like to hear some further explanation on how in a capitalistic society we restrict our farmers from selling on the International market. These type of restrictions have been lifted on oil sales with bipartisan support. You are suggesting that we limit where and how much our farmers can sell their product for? Government control of the means of production? Where have I heard this theory before?

I have a feeling any movement of the sort will go over like a lead balloon in farm country.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
I would like to hear some further explanation on how in a capitalistic society we restrict our farmers from selling on the International market. These type of restrictions have been lifted on oil sales with bipartisan support. You are suggesting that we limit where and how much our farmers can sell their product for? Government control of the means of production? Where have I heard this theory before?

I have a feeling any movement of the sort will go over like a lead balloon in farm country.

No restriction…incentivize.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

US/ japan/ philippines/taiwan dont allow them too.

That is the part it looks like they aim to change first.