https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...ff05502b9f1a70&ei=15

Trump Indicted Over Plot To Reverse 2020 Defeat
Story by Josh Kovensky • 11m ago

===============================================

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...ff05502b9f1a70&ei=19

Trump indicted on charges related to efforts to overturn 2020 election
4m ago

Former President Donald Trump has been indicted on charges related to special counsel Jack Smith's probe into efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

The sweeping indictment charges Trump with four counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights.

The alleged conspiracies include enlisting a slate of so-called "fake electors" targeting several states, using the Justice Department to conduct "sham election crime investigations," enlisting the vice president to "alter the election results." and doubling down on false claims as the Jan. 6 riot ensued.

There are also six unnamed co-conspirators, including multiple attorneys and a Justice Department official.

"Despite having lost, the Defendant was determined to remain in power," the indictment reads. "So for more than two months following election day on November 3, 2020, the Defendant spread lies that there had been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that he had actually won."

"These claims were false, and the Defendant knew that they were false. But the Defendant repeated and widely disseminated them anyway -- to make his knowingly false claims appear legitimate, create an intense national atmosphere of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election," reads the indictment.

My impression of Jack Smith is he doesn't fuck around. Doesn't care about publicity, doesn't really care about who the target is, just does his job. Smith's "press conference" today should enforce this. A short statement about the indictment, took no questions, doesn't care about being famous. Just doing his job. Trump should be very worried.

It’s disgusting that in a NYT poll released today, Trump and Biden are tied at 47% each. Geez, what a choice. It’s my hope that all the various judges involved push all the trials as fast as possible so Trump will be a convicted felon by November 2024……

I hope they take as much time as required to get convictions if warranted. Push too fast and the whiners will complain about lack of due process. Go to slow and whiners will complain about the "timing" of the trials.

The Republicans want to de-fund the FBI and justice in general. Luckily they haven't gotten their way so far.

The Republican Party needs to be de-funded, dissolved, and rebuilt by normal Americans devoid of the MAGA Misfits.

quote:

The Republican Party needs to be de-funded, dissolved, and rebuilt by normal Americans devoid of the MAGA Misfits.

Wow.

Owch.

What if - they learn their lesson?

What's the chance of that?

Aug. 1: The New Trump Indictment Was Worth the Wait
Story by Slate Staff • 49m ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/trav...798fb767f099ad&ei=24

This indictment was well worth the wait, Dennis Aftergut writes. It is “at once sure-footed, streamlined, and prudently aggressive.”

https://slate.com/news-and-pol...ion-masterpiece.html

Jack Smith’s Jan. 6 Trump Indictment Is a Prosecutorial Masterstroke

Some things long overdue are worth waiting for.

I like parody and satire and poetry and other artforms. Don't you?

https://youtu.be/bTt1iWH_3Jc

THREE TIMES - Parody of Three Times a Lady | Don Caron

812 views Aug 1, 2023
August 1 2023 - "Donald Trump has been indicted by a federal grand jury in special counsel Jack Smith’s investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election leading up to the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, according to a court document. The former president has been indicted on four counts, conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding; obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding; and conspiracy against rights."

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I hope they take as much time as required to get convictions if warranted. Push too fast and the whiners will complain about lack of due process. Go to slow and whiners will complain about the "timing" of the trials.

The Republicans want to de-fund the FBI and justice in general. Luckily they haven't gotten their way so far.

The Republican Party needs to be de-funded, dissolved, and rebuilt by normal Americans devoid of the MAGA Misfits.

There is some irony that I see but don't understand.

Why can't the GOP get rid of Trump?

They seem to be waiting for the DOJ to do the job they don't have the gumptions for.

Yet, many, if not most, republicans still support Trump and somehow think he's persecuted by an unequal and unfair justice system - that it's specifically weaponized to get Trump. and collaterally them.

Can anyone explain this?

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I hope they take as much time as required to get convictions if warranted. Push too fast and the whiners will complain about lack of due process. Go to slow and whiners will complain about the "timing" of the trials.

The Republicans want to de-fund the FBI and justice in general. Luckily they haven't gotten their way so far.

The Republican Party needs to be de-funded, dissolved, and rebuilt by normal Americans devoid of the MAGA Misfits.

There is some irony that I see but don't understand.

Why can't the GOP get rid of Trump?

They seem to be waiting for the DOJ to do the job they don't have the gumptions for.

Yet, many, if not most, republicans still support Trump and somehow think he's persecuted by an unequal and unfair justice system - that it's specifically weaponized to get Trump. and collaterally them.

Can anyone explain this?

It's been well documented here that I generally don't know what I'm talking about,....but anyway,.....

The ability to learn, the ability to discern seems to be gone. Today many of us don't seem to be able to consider a variety of information; right or left, black or white, outside or inside, daylight or nighttime and reach an intelligent conclusion.

I've heard people say, "your/ their/ my truth". It's no longer the truth. Facts are no longer facts. It blows me away that a witness can swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; and it isn't true.

So, my side listens to the editorial, the conspiratorial and the rumors of Evil Forces, ( Jewish Space Lasers!) still my favorite, and in fact the election was rigged and Trump won.

Mind blown.

We don't need to be reasonable anymore, it's more important to be right, to be vindicated, especially to win.

The GOP won't get rid of Trump because they don't want to be wrong and that's one of the reasons I'd like to see the obliteration of the GOP.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...090b7b65aa3130&ei=15

‘Doomed’: Trump charged with trying to overturn 2020 election—and supporters smell conspiracy with judge assignment
Story by David Covucci • 3h ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...68fb5abbc433b4&ei=26

Marjorie Taylor Greene Draws 'Line in the Sand' Over Trump Indictment
Story by Kaitlin Lewis • Yesterday 9:00 PM

The former president is facing four criminal counts in the DOJ's probe into the attack on the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. Prosecutors charge that the former president and his allies repeatedly attempted to block the Electoral College vote certification on the day of the attack, including through pressure campaigns and a failed fake-elector scheme.

The former president attacked Special Counsel Jack Smith on Tuesday for "putting out yet another Fake Indictment" against him, accusing the Justice Department of attempting to interfere with his 2024 reelection bid.

Greene, one of Trump's closest allies in Congress, echoed the former president in a statement Tuesday night, claiming that the latest federal charges were a sign that the U.S. is starting to resemble "authoritarian regimes rather than the beacon of freedom and democracy our founders valiantly fought to establish."

"Innocent individuals, including former President Donald J. Trump, are being unjustly targeted by a Department of Injustice and an FBI transformed into political hitmen, acting at the behest of the sitting president," read the statement, which was obtained by Newsweek.

"Special Counsel Jack Smith has abused his power, using his office to persecute President Trump, his aides, and ultimately, the American people. These actions are undoubtedly politically motivated, with clear intentions of interfering with the upcoming 2024 election."

Greene also reiterated calls to defund the DOJ, which, she said, has been pursuing "baseless investigations." The Republican also introduced articles of impeachment against U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland.

"This is the line in the sand," she continued. "This is nothing but a political assassination and I will not vote to fund a communist regime. I will not vote to fund a weaponized government while it politically persecutes not only President Trump but all conservative Americans."

"The Biden Department of Justice has gone rogue, and the FBI are their henchmen," Greene added. "Until we restore the FBI and the Department of Justice to the esteemed institutions they once were, I will not vote to fund these communist organizations that are doing the bidding of Joe Biden."

Greene ended her statement by claiming that her support for Trump was "unwavering."

Conservatives such as Greene first called to defund federal law enforcement following the former president's first DOJ indictment handed down in June, in which Trump is now facing 40 felony counts related to his handling of classified documents recovered from his Mar-a-Lago estate in August 2022.

Florida Representative Matt Gaetz, a fellow conservative, also reignited calls for Smith to be defunded in a post on the platform "X" Tuesday night.Trump has pressed his allies in both chambers of Congress to act against federal law enforcement in light of his indictments.

But some Republicans have dismissed calls to take away funding for departments like the DOJ and the FBI, including Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski, who previously compared the conservative cry to the Democratic-backed plan to "defund the police."

"It was not too many years ago when the big cry [among Democrats] was, 'Defund the police,' and Republicans were saying, 'Are you out of your mind?'" Murkowski said. "Now, the Republicans are saying defund the Department of Justice, defund the FBI. What are we doing people? Yes, I'm worried."

Thanks for the reply, Scott.

Since Tomahawker knows so much about what others think, he ought to chime in with his explanation.

My thoughts on why they can't get rid of Trump - there are several reasons. The GOP politicians who could - won't because Trump has threatened to end their careers. Some of the good ones are already gone - voted out. But his threats and primary challenges don't always work. Kemp and Raffensperger are two fine examples. The other survivors are just biding their time until the tide turns - no balls.

Another related reason the politicians won't mess with Trump is because so many voters want him doing what he does, and hope for more, such as him being POTUS again.

Others believe any fascist will do. If not Trump then DeSantis, etc.

Anyway, I think it's a strange situation that someone like Trump could get ahold on the balls of a political party and wretch such havoc.

Maybe lots of republicans like for a fascist to own their balls?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I hope they take as much time as required to get convictions if warranted. Push too fast and the whiners will complain about lack of due process. Go to slow and whiners will complain about the "timing" of the trials.

The Republicans want to de-fund the FBI and justice in general. Luckily they haven't gotten their way so far.

The Republican Party needs to be de-funded, dissolved, and rebuilt by normal Americans devoid of the MAGA Misfits.

There is some irony that I see but don't understand.

Why can't the GOP get rid of Trump?

They seem to be waiting for the DOJ to do the job they don't have the gumptions for.

Yet, many, if not most, republicans still support Trump and somehow think he's persecuted by an unequal and unfair justice system - that it's specifically weaponized to get Trump. and collaterally them.

Can anyone explain this?

It's been well documented here that I generally don't know what I'm talking about,....but anyway,.....

The ability to learn, the ability to discern seems to be gone. Today many of us don't seem to be able to consider a variety of information; right or left, black or white, outside or inside, daylight or nighttime and reach an intelligent conclusion.

I've heard people say, "your/ their/ my truth". It's no longer the truth. Facts are no longer facts. It blows me away that a witness can swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; and it isn't true.

So, my side listens to the editorial, the conspiratorial and the rumors of Evil Forces, ( Jewish Space Lasers!) still my favorite, and in fact the election was rigged and Trump won.

Mind blown.

We don't need to be reasonable anymore, it's more important to be right, to be vindicated, especially to win.

The GOP won't get rid of Trump because they don't want to be wrong and that's one of the reasons I'd like to see the obliteration of the GOP.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/vide...ocid=socialshare&t=2

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...68fb5abbc433b4&ei=29

'Chilling tale': Ex-FBI official offers stark warning after reading new Trump charges
Story by David McAfee • Yesterday 11:59 PM

Asked what he sees in the 45-page indictment, Figliuzzi said, "I see a chilling tale of how close we came, all of us, to literally being the defrauded of our civil rights, our right to a free and fair election."

He continued with a warning to citizens who might be listening:

"If you're listening to the show, watching the show, and you're an American citizen, you were almost defrauded by the president of the United States, who tried to steal an election from us," he said.

He went on to say that Smith intelligently charged Jan. 6 offences without directly challenging Trump's freedom of speech .

===============================================

BTW, those who gave him their hard-earned cash were defrauded, not almost but actually.

And also BTW, your prayers were wasted too. Millions of dollars, millions of prayers - all wasted, all for the wrong cause.

================================================

Just because Trump has been indicted three times with multiple felony charges, and probably more to come, doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion for him.

The claim that he's running for office again to avoid consequences for his crimes is no joke.

Some herein have cherished the notion that what Trump says he will do, if elected, can't happen. Things such as mass pardons, deployment of 20,000 shock troops, etc.

"It ain't over till the fat lady sings", as they say.
https://youtu.be/dIVfbylUU-M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...l_the_fat_lady_sings

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...20ce66103b6281&ei=27

Harvard Law Professor Spots 1 Major Flaw In Case Against Trump
Story by Ed Mazza • 7h ago

Harvard constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe called the indictment against Donald Trump “brilliant,” but said there’s one factor that could render the whole thing moot: Timing.

“I do think that [Attorney General] Merrick Garland did not proceed as fast as he might have,” Tribe said on MSNBC on Tuesday evening.

As a result, the case against Trump over his actions leading up to the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol could drag on into the next presidency.

“If the next presidency is held either by Donald Trump or by one of his acolytes or by virtually any Republican, there is the horrible prospect that this will all be wiped away,” he said. “And that it will be relegated to a kind of a historic footnote.”

Tribe said it’s a reminder of how “vulnerable and fragile” the legal system is.

“We have a system that might go too slowly, that might be too opaque,” he said. “And a system that is not at all guaranteed to triumph over politics.”

I agree a President Pardon of President Trump would be a disaster. However. If President Trump or other Republicans run on pardons as a policy point, and the people elect such a person, we deserve what we get.

That is why the state cases are more important than the Media and AR are recognizing.

A President cannot pardon a NY State Felony Conviction. There will not be a NY Governor who will pardon President Trump. I doubt a GA Governor would either.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...=winp2fptaskbar&ei=6

Donald Trump's Jan. 6 indictment: Too late for justice?
Story by Heather Digby Parton • 2h ago

During the 2016 presidential campaign, Donald Trump repeatedly said that the electoral process was rigged. After losing the Iowa primary caucus he declared that Sen. Ted Cruz had stolen it and tweeted, "based on the fraud committed by Senator Ted Cruz during the Iowa caucus, either a new election should take place or Cruz results nullified." That was just the beginning. Throughout the general election campaign, he refused to say if he would accept the results, even in a televised presidential debate in October. He finally told his followers that he would accept the vote count — but only if he won — and they responded with rapturous adulation. Even when he won the Electoral College he refused to accept the popular vote results and formed a commission to prove that the numbers were fraudulent. (It came up empty, of course.)

So, it was no surprise that he spent most of the 2020 election casting aspersions on mail-in voting and planting the suspicion that the election was going to be stolen from him.

It's not like he kept it a secret. We always knew he would never accept the results of an election unless he was the victor. So when he came before the cameras in the wee hours after election day 2020, as the votes were still being counted, and declared that there was something wrong with the election and that he won in a landslide, it was almost anti-climactic.

What followed, however, was anything but predictable.

We knew Trump would whine and cry and declare the election was rigged but I don't think anyone knew how far he would go to manipulate the system and break the law to stay in office anyway.

On Tuesday, Donald Trump was finally indicted by the special counsel investigating the January 6 insurrection on four felony charges: obstruction of an official proceeding (the certification of the presidential election on January 6), conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy to deny voting rights.

If you wonder what the significance of this indictment might be in contrast to the other cases pending in various venues throughout the country, former acting solicitor general Neal Katyal told MSNBC:

"This is a momentous legal event. It's the most significant legal event of our lifetimes, one of the most significant legal events ever in the history of this country. It is up there with Marbury vs Madison, Brown vs Board of Education, Dred Scott as a defining case for the times... This indictment lays out a case that a guy who was president of the United States while he was president of the US leveraged his office, used his power to thwart the will of the people in the most solemn thing they do in our country, vote... this is the biggest constitutional crime in our history."

He was the only one indicted but six unnamed co-conspirators are accused of helping him do it, five of them lawyers and one a political operative. The five lawyers are assumed to be Rudolph Giuliani, John Eastman, Sidney Powell, Jeffrey Clark and Kenneth Chesebro. The identity of the political operative remains obscure.

Those of us who followed the January 6 committee hearings and read its final report are familiar with the narrative laid out in the indictment. Trump and his henchmen cooked up several different plots to pressure local Republican election officials to change the vote count in his favor, create a fake set of electors from the close swing states, have the Justice Department send out letters erroneously suggesting the feds had found fraud and then strong arm the vice president to defy the Constitution and refuse to count the legitimate electoral votes on January 6.

The indictment has a few new details, such as the fact that even after the violence, as Congress was preparing to reconvene to certify the election near midnight, one of Trump's co-conspirators emailed the vice president, saying "I implore you to consider on more relatively minor violation [of the ECA] and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations as well as to allow a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here." After the violent insurrection in which Trump's inflamed followers stormed the Capitol during a joint session and chanted "hang Mike Pence," this person (assumed to be conservative constitutional scholar John Eastman) had the audacity to beg the Pence to knowingly break the law —- but just a little bit. (That plan, incidentally, was also pushed hard by Senator Ted Cruz.)

Regardless of the outcome of this trial, even if they manage to get it done before the election next year, I think we may have to face a disappointing truth. In a normal, healthy democracy a candidate in this much trouble would drop out of the race, either because of a need to focus on the legal problems, pressure from the party or perhaps even a sense of shame. None of that applies to Donald Trump, the frontrunner for the Republican nomination who has vowed to stay in the race no matter what. Judging by the initial commentary from the right-wing media, these charges aren't going to make a bit of a difference.

In the end, we are dealing with a great irony. Donald Trump is under indictment for trying to steal an election but he may very well be given absolution for his crimes by the free and fair electoral system he has demeaned and degraded ever since he entered politics. If that were to happen I'm afraid that the half of the country that still believes in democracy and the rule of law would be hard-pressed to keep the faith if that were to happen. What would be the point?

===============================================

https://www.salon.com/2023/08/...d-at-the-ballot-box/

Criminal indictments are not enough: Donald Trump must be defeated at the ballot box
But even defeating Trump at the polls will be insufficient to secure the future of American democracy
By CHAUNCEY DEVEGA
Senior Writer
PUBLISHED AUGUST 2, 2023 6:01AM (EDT)

Everyone seems to be missing the point that Trump's very vocal supporters will support him regardless of what he is accused of or indicted for. There is no evidence which would convince them, no crime too heinous, to turn them from their cult leader.
The upcoming election may be interesting; if only because it may feature the to only candidate on either side which the opposing candidate can beat.
Joe's record is so abysmal that he shouldn't be able to beat anyone. Trump, on the other hand, carries so much baggage (though unseen by his followers) that he is the one Republican against whom Biden has a chance.
So it is that Democrats gleefully applaud each indictment; not realizing they make no difference whatsoever. Republicans continue to ridicule an old man; not realizing that Democrats cannot, and will not, admit to any infirmity.
Hollywood couldn't make this shit up. Regards, Bill.

All retarded and for few of you hard cases and experts ( politically ) most of us don’t give an ounce of shit

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
My impression of Jack Smith is he doesn't fuck around. Doesn't care about publicity, doesn't really care about who the target is, just does his job. Smith's "press conference" today should enforce this. A short statement about the indictment, took no questions, doesn't care about being famous. Just doing his job. Trump should be very worried.

Apparently, Smith doesn't care about justice much either.
His record isn't stellar in the least:

"A review found that Mr. Smith’s team followed the same playbook in the Trump case as in other high-stakes political prosecutions of both Republicans and Democrats. That playbook has resulted in a spotty record:

• Mr. Smith’s conviction against former Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell, a Republican accused of accepting payments and gifts in violation of federal public corruption laws, was overturned by the Supreme Court.

• The case against former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, a Democratic presidential candidate accused of illegally using campaign cash to conceal his mistress and love child, ended with a hung jury and mistrial.

• The prosecution of Sen. Robert Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat accused of taking bribes, collapsed in a mistrial.

• The conviction of New York Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, a Democrat, on federal corruption charges was overturned by an appeals court. He was convicted during a second trial, but an appeals court threw out three of the six guilty verdicts. He died last year.

“Government lawyers have a higher duty to the truth and cause of justice, and that’s where some of these government prosecutors, like Mr. Smith, have fallen short,” Mr. McDonnell said. “They are smart and well-credentialed, but they don’t seem to be exercising good judgment when it comes to this point.”

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
My impression of Jack Smith is he doesn't fuck around. Doesn't care about publicity, doesn't really care about who the target is, just does his job. Smith's "press conference" today should enforce this. A short statement about the indictment, took no questions, doesn't care about being famous. Just doing his job. Trump should be very worried.

Apparently, Smith doesn't care about justice much either.
His record isn't stellar in the least:

"A review found that Mr. Smith’s team followed the same playbook in the Trump case as in other high-stakes political prosecutions of both Republicans and Democrats. That playbook has resulted in a spotty record:

• Mr. Smith’s conviction against former Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell, a Republican accused of accepting payments and gifts in violation of federal public corruption laws, was overturned by the Supreme Court.

• The case against former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, a Democratic presidential candidate accused of illegally using campaign cash to conceal his mistress and love child, ended with a hung jury and mistrial.

• The prosecution of Sen. Robert Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat accused of taking bribes, collapsed in a mistrial.

• The conviction of New York Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, a Democrat, on federal corruption charges was overturned by an appeals court. He was convicted during a second trial, but an appeals court threw out three of the six guilty verdicts. He died last year.

“Government lawyers have a higher duty to the truth and cause of justice, and that’s where some of these government prosecutors, like Mr. Smith, have fallen short,” Mr. McDonnell said. “They are smart and well-credentialed, but they don’t seem to be exercising good judgment when it comes to this point.”

He's been a prosecutor for decades and has handled thousands of cases. I doubt your list is representative of his success rate which I am certain is quite high. Prosecutors don't prosecute cases that they think they are going to lose.

But, there's an old saying amongst trial lawyers: if you aren't losing any, you aren't trying any.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Apparently, Smith doesn't care about justice much either.

Aside from your assessment of Smith - Do you care about justice?

I mean - what should have happened, whether it was Smith making the case or someone else?

Given all the evidence, did Smith have an option other than indict?

It's my understanding that a grand jury did the indicting - not Smith.

I think this whole thing is astonishing - more like gut wrenching, especially what's coming from FOX and Newsmax, etc.:

The media - for example. This freak show will go on for a long, long time.

Which of the following is more convincing?


FOX:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...7LI?ocid=socialshare

NBC:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...laj?ocid=socialshare

FOX in a tizzy. There's money to be made

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...KOd?ocid=socialshare

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...zG1?ocid=socialshare

Giuliani on Newsmax
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...yT4?ocid=socialshare

More FOX:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...51O?ocid=socialshare

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...a6775a42cb0074&ei=60

Trump demands Judge Tanya Chutkan be removed from election case after ruling against him
Story by Ariana Baio and Megan Sheets •
8m

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...TgG?ocid=socialshare

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...zih?ocid=socialshare

Roger Stone plotting Nov 5, 2020